Why I refuse to support my FLGS

So charge me with unethical behavior. Like I give a rat's ass.

Its sad that you take ethics so lightly.

Then you are a sucker. Businesses have insurance to cover damaged goods, and that includes accidental breakage.

I'm not a sucker- I just have ethics.

Damaged goods are "insured" only in the sense of shipping damage (in which case the risk of loss depends on the shipping contract. Once the risk of loss has shifted to the retailer, the only insurance clauses that cover inventory deal with things like fire, flood, and acts of god. Since putting in a claim will likely raise the insured's rates (which would, in turn, raise operating costs, and thus prices), the only time a claim is made is when losses reach near total levels. Small numbers of broken merchandise are losses that can only be recovered by charging a certain percent markup on prices on the other units or throughout the store.

Online retailers have to account for mail fraud and damage in transit as well.

No they don't. You know that shipping charge you pay? That is you paying not only for the cost of shipping but the risk of loss as well. They have shifted that entire cost to you and the shipping company. The price you pay is the cost of losses the shipping company suffers annually due to damages and mail fraud, distributed over their entire customer base.

Dannyalcatraz
1) Consumer A hears about Product A, and decides if he's going to buy it, he is going to buy Product A at Retailer A.
2) Before buying Product A, Consumer A goes to Retailer B to examine Product A already knowing that Product A will be bought elsewhere.
3) By doing so, Consumer A raises Retailer B's costs in relation to Retailer A, and Retailer B cannot recover that cost from anyone else except Consumers B+ C + whomever.

What costs were raised and by how much?

The same costs as on the test drive: the product recieves wear & tear; the cost of the employee's time wasted (since you have 0 interest in buying in that store) talking to you when he could have been doing something productive for the store like restocking or monitoring shoplifters; the opportunity costs of that employee not selling to someone else who MIGHT have an interest in spending money in the store, the physical damage your non-paying presence is doing to the infrastructure of the store, etc.

The costs would be calculated by:
1) figuring out the prorated cost of the employee's wages (lets say...$3.50 for 30 minutes) devoted to serving someone pretending to be a customer,
2) plus the opportunity cost of a lost sale: the probability of a sale by the employee who was waiting on you- in a half-hour, I'd say 10%x the cost of the average (mean) product in the store - lets say $15, for another $1.50. A weighted mean would be more accurate, but for that I'd need the prices of everything in the store + sales volume by product.
3) plus the cost of wear and tear on the product and other factors. I'm just geussing here, but lets call it...$0.15. Just remember, everything counts in large amounts.

Total, $5.15.

Dannyalcatraz
2) If the online retailer IS a predatory pricer, they can drop their prices indefinitely, and the cycle can continue until the RPG publisher declares bankruptcy. Most online retailers are NOT after the millions in the business of selling games. They are trying to reach, and eventually monopolize, the OTHER products for which gamers are the core target market- the multi-billion dollar scifi/fantasy/superhero movie/book/tv/game products. The RPGs can be sold at a loss if it gets the gamers to the website ...

You are making two important assumptions here. First, you assume that the online retailer is actively aware and trying to get rid of the smaller businesses. While not impossible, this behavior is highly improbable.

I can guarantee you that every major retailer- Wal-Mart, Amazon, B&N, etc. has access to reports that let them know who the competition is for every category of product they sell in every region. I'm currently handling an account that breaks down a certain category of products in the D/FW market down to individual businesses spending as little as $13 dollars (not 13M, or thousand...just dollars) in that category. LGSs fall into a category called "Specialty Stores" when it comes to things like sci-fi movie tie-ins- the money that the big boys REALLY want.

Second, you assume that the online retailer can drive down prices indefinitely. They cannot - their ultimate price is determined by the publisher. The publisher is not required to sell it to Amazon, for example, and can actively choose to use another method of distribution.

And you called ME a sucker? HA!

If they are trying to drive competition out of the market, Amazon (or any major online retailer) can drop prices on a particular category of product as low as they want because they move SO MUCH product, they can cover the loss with a few pennies added onto everything else they sell- and STILL pay off the publisher. They can also decide to pay the publisher late, gaining money on the time-value of money. This is what the major auto manufacturers do- they pay their suppliers 30-90 days late, all the while earning money on the money they haven't disbursed.

And as for not selling to Amazon- there isn't a publisher out there who doesn't want to have millions and millions of potential sales outlets. Unless the terms of the agreement are egregious, most publishers would be loathe to pass up that opportunity.

And products cannot be sold for a loss. That is dumping and is illegal.

Wrong again. Products get sold for a loss every day by businesses. Dumping is when products are sold at a loss as a sustained business practice in order to gain market share- which, as the old saying goes, is not illegal 'till you get caught.

Dumping/Predatory pricing is one of the most common illegal business practices out there, at least as far as the allegations in filed lawsuits indicates. Its also damned hard to prove because the best source of records you would need to prove a case of dumping/predatory pricing are in the hands of the alleged offender.

Currently, Wal-Mart is under investigation for predatory pricing in several states, and other retailers may follow.
 

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TheYeti1775 said:
Essentially in a nutshell, I believe so.

I'm not a business guy, but I know if I can get product for $23 and have a buyer at $26 what's to stop me.
It's funny you should say you're not a business guy because if you were, you wouldn't make this suggestion. :) Here's why.

If I buy the book for $23 and sell it for $26, I’ve made $3. Yay. But, I want to be a game store and have this book in stock for other gamers, so I would repurchase the item, so I will have to spend another $23. At that point, I’ve spent $46, and gotten $26 in return. I'm in the hole $20. If I want to make sure I have at least one copy of the book in stock, I will need to have sold that book 8 times to make $1. In other words, I buy 9 books at $207 and sell 8 at $208, making $1 profit.

Lets look at this another way. Making $3 on a $26 book, is 11.5% margin. If that is the norm for all the products in my store, lets look how much I need to sell to pay my bills. My store rent is over $2k/month, but I’ll use $2k for this example. In order for me to pay rent, I’ll need to sell $17.4k/month just to pay rent, or over $208k per year. That’s just to pay rent! Hmmm $208k in sales to pay $24k in rent. Crazy! As I look at my other bills, it just gets uglier. (I hope I did my math right :heh: )

BTW, if we are to assume that Amazon.com has it's own distribution center, like WalMart and other big corporate stores, that means it purchases its products at the "distributor cost", so they are making a pretty nice margin even on such low prices.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
Vacaville, CA
 
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TheYeti1775 said:
One thing that really needs to be thought about though for the brick & mortar is the number one factor for most in coming back is the customer service. <snip>
So with LGS's it becomes a buyer's market. Find something we need, that the 'big box' can't. This is where your gaming table comes in. Host a Warhammer/Mini's tournement, with a small prize for the winner. Offer lamination of single sheets. DM's are always looking to protect some of their works somehow, what better way then to have something they can wipe off. Offer something that is unique to your shop. That's the only thing I can think of.
Bring back the old Bulletin Board of Local Gamers seeking games/gammers. Haven't seen that in a store in ages. (Guess what you can use that also to mine for potential advertisement and what to stock.)
In my case, I provide all of the above things you mentioned and more. I try to provide good customer service by greeting customers as they come in remembering their names and the products my customers like. So, aparently, even good customer service is not good enough for all gamer to shop at a B&M store vs. online. What I'm getting from this thread, is no matter what a game store does, short of matching online pricing, for some gamers, only price matters. I am amazed at how cynical some gamers are towards game stores in this thread. In some cases, it seems like it’s downright hatred. It’s like game stores are viewed as the “bad guy”. I come from a time when game stores were viewed as precious commodities. “It’s a store that’s dedicated to my beloved hobby. How cool!” Skiers have their ski shops, paintballers have their shops, and even geeky gamers have their shops! But it seems, evident from this thread, many gamers see game stores as antiquated and only marginally useful, if that. I’m still trying to figure out when this happened. I sure missed it! I valued game stores so much that I opened my own. Thankfully, there are a lot of gamers in my area that see the value of having a game store in their town and support it. Thus I'm still in business...for now.

FWIW, I've been running my game store for 1 1/2 years, 6 days/week, 70+ hours/week, just to create a game store gamers can call their own. So far, I'm doing well enough to survive, but still not well enough to hire employees and continue to improve my store. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if all the gamers in my area that are left for me to gain as customers are dedicated online shoppers. I don't know what else I can do to earn their business. Offering a discount will hurt me more than help. Even if offering a discount increases sales, the increase will never offset the loss from the discount.

As for shopping at a B&M store knowing you'll be ordering online, I'm not going to bring ethics into it, but what I will say is out of respect for the hard work, time, effort, and money put into running a small business, if you're not going to buy from the store, don't shop at the store.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
 

These comments are just dead wrong. At least from the side of a small business retailer.

freebfrost said:
Then you are a sucker. Businesses have insurance to cover damaged goods, and that includes accidental breakage. That business that you just paid is going to turn around and charge the insurer for the item and get double profit...
If a customer is looking at a book, dropps it scratching the cover and ripping a page, then puts it quietly back on the shelf, I've just lost money which my insurance won't cover.

freebfrost said:
Ever see the working side of retail stores? You'd be amazed at what gets sent back - and those unscrupulous sellers are increasing our prices as a result!
If a product is damaged in my store, I have no way to return it. I believe the big corporations work deals that allow them to do that though. But not us small guys.

(-Brad Daeda
Owner, Gamer's Keepe
 

Retail has to evolve

Dristram said:
I I come from a time when game stores were viewed as precious commodities. “It’s a store that’s dedicated to my beloved hobby. How cool!” Skiers have their ski shops, paintballers have their shops, and even geeky gamers have their shops! But it seems, evident from this thread, many gamers see game stores as antiquated and only marginally useful, if that. I’m still trying to figure out when this happened. I sure missed it!

I haven't been to a physical game store for years. The same goes for bookstores (though Borders at Christmas reeled me in by giving a massive discount for a book I wanted). And clothing stores, etc. If I know that I want something, I'll buy it on-line if I can. It's more convenient, I don't have to deal with grubby clerks behind the counter, and getting into the car to go somewhere just for one trip. It's not just games --- my brothers buy their ski equipment on eBay, and I bought my bicycle on eBay as well. Why pay retail?

Now, I still visit bike shops, but that's because they provide something no one on-line can provide: service. If I can't fix my bike myself, I have no choice but to find an expert who can. Until game store retailers provide something similar, I have no reason to visit a game store. And it's not unusual for me to know more about bikes and games than the typical bike shop/game shop owner, so you have to be an exceptionally knowledgeable bike shop/game shop owner with an exceptionally talented staff before I'm even interested in shopping there.
 

Dristram said:
What I'm getting from this thread, is no matter what a game store does, short of matching online pricing, for some gamers, only price matters.

See now it depends on the product though. At the time when I was still frequenting my LGS, I wanted to purchase WLD, but there was NO WAY that I was paying $100 for that. I found it on-line for about $60.

I've said it repeatedly and it really seems like some of you are purposefully ignoring this point so I'm gonna keep beating this until you guys get it or DIE. IF I had a gamestore that was actually nice and worth frequenting then yeah, honestly, I'd support them with SOME of my purchases. "Big Ticket" items like Necromancer's upcoming Wilderland's boxed set would be bought online. But I would have purchased either Heroes of Battle OR DM's Guide II from the LGS, but not both as I would have been able to on Amazon.

So I, the consumer, deny myself a product that I want just to support the LGS? That doesnt seem right at all... But if there were an LGS around me worth supporting I might.

Dristram said:
I am amazed at how cynical some gamers are towards game stores in this thread. In some cases, it seems like it’s downright hatred.

Yeah, but not for nothing this thread doesnt exactly make me want to rush out and support if you know what I mean. Not your replies per say, which have been really civil, but some of the other "support your local game store or it's your fault that our industry implodes" people really need to chill the hell on out. Seriously, instead of taking the consumer to task who honestly is either trying to save a buck or get more for his money, what you need to do is get at some of these weak ass game stores for not taking thier buisness more seriously. I've heard more horror stories about LGS than good ones, but still some of you are still droning on with "support, support". And in light of those horror stories and economic theory and how buisness works none of you have convinced me of the fact that if your local game store SUCKS ROCKS why a consumer should still support it.

Amazon, B&N, and Wal-mart may win in the end. The LGS may disappear off of the face of the earth (unlikely). Alot of publishers that I like my go under (if the go the direct sales and/or PDF route, unlikely). It still doenst change the fact that people will still be able to play the RPG's that they have. I personally dont need new add-on rules and suppliments every other month. I buy them because I LIKE THEM not because I NEED THEM. When they start getting to costly or too lame I stop buying them. Youre talking to someone who has 6 WH40K armies. Six (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Tau, Tyranid and Necrons). I was buying to assemble and paint not to play. But when GW began drivng thier prices through the roof I stopped buying the mini's. For a while I got them from online vendors, but when they put the kabosh on that, then nothing. My point is it's not like I don't mind spending the money, but if youre gonna insist that I buy the product from you then you need to offer me something more in return than just the product. You evidently do, my local LGS does not, so Amazon, here I come.
 

Dristram said:
But it seems, evident from this thread, many gamers see game stores as antiquated and only marginally useful, if that. I’m still trying to figure out when this happened. I sure missed it! I valued game stores so much that I opened my own. Thankfully, there are a lot of gamers in my area that see the value of having a game store in their town and support it. Thus I'm still in business...for now.

For me it's the fact that you can gain much more information about new releases online. The guys at the shop I frequent dont know nearly as much about the products as I do. I wouldn't be surprised if they still asked whether the product I asked for was for 2nd ed :\ So, there's really no advantage to going to a store instead of researching the the book online.

However, being as it may, the shop is the only fantasy shop nearby, and online shopping isn't as attractive in Finland as in the states, so I still have to go there. I do some shopping from the US amazon that is much cheaper than that store, due to weak dollar, even with shipping.
 

I've said it repeatedly and it really seems like some of you are purposefully ignoring this point so I'm gonna keep beating this until you guys get it or DIE. IF I had a gamestore that was actually nice and worth frequenting then yeah, honestly, I'd support them with SOME of my purchases.

You have obviously missed the responses by myself and others that we're not advocating supporting local stores merely because they're local.

I (and others) advocate supporting WORTHY local stores, and I further suggest informing those found unworthy WHY they won't be getting your business.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
You have obviously missed the responses by myself and others that we're not advocating supporting local stores merely because they're local.

I (and others) advocate supporting WORTHY local stores, and I further suggest informing those found unworthy WHY they won't be getting your business.

Me: I've said it repeatedly and it really seems like some of you...

SOME of you. If youre NOT one of those people that I'm talking about then I'm not addressing you. Not being snarky here, I'm just sayin'...

Secondly there are no other local stores, or I should be more specific, stores that are local to me that are WORTHY. Neutral Ground mainly caters to CCG / miniature gamers and I only frequent it if I'm desperate for a specific miniature or paint. Complete Strat is a good store in terms of selection and staff but I dont particularly care for the guy who runs the place and it offers me nothing more than availability so I stopped spending money there.

Right now online shopping benefits me more, until someone opens a WORTHY gamestore nearby...
 

First off, I will say that I am fortunate enough to have a great FLGS nearby. (Anyone in the Boston area, check out Danger Planet!!) :p

Plugs aside, I will say that I do most of my gaming purchases there, though I will go online (through Amazon or whatever) if the incentive is there: I was able to purchase WLD for $60 (versus the $100 SRP.) And I don't think that's unreasonable, given that my purchases (I do board, card, and RP'ing games) at my local FLGS(s) far outweigh the things I buy online.

Indeed, the staff at my FLGS know my tastes, and actually put aside stuff they think I might like, even if I didn't special-order it. (They know, for instance, that I will buy just about any "Midnight" or "Eberron" supplement.) I return the favor by telling them what I think will sell in the world of Role-Playing, since that is not their area of expertise. '

However, I think the main reason that I support the local stores (and it's not JUST DP I support, though that's the most convenient to me) is that it's a natural place to meet new people, get opinions, and perhaps make some friends.

Even at stores that don't offer Open Gaming Space, it's easy enough to strike up a conversation, knowing that we have something in common. Indeed, many of my closest friends have been made at local stores, through sheer happenstance.

However, as I am friends with the owner of my FLGS, I have an idea of how tough it is to make ends meet doing this for a living. I know that he (and probably most other FLGS owners) do it for the love they have for gaming.

t I'm getting from this thread, is no matter what a game store does, short of matching online pricing, for some gamers, only price matters.

Actually, I do know a few local gamers who ONLY worry about the price, but I think they're very much in the minority. (At least from what I can tell from my experiences.)
 

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