D&D 5E Why I Think D&DN is In Trouble

[Jester David]

You do know essentials was not announced a year ahead of time they were announced not at gen con 2009 but at D&D experience in 2010.

Right. At that time they tended to announce the products between that GenCon and the next and occasionally a few extras. But they did announce the books that came out a month prior to Essentials.

They decided not to announce Essentials at that time but that does not mean it was not on their mind. Yes, they walked out of GenCon 2009, having seen Pathfinder sell out, and immediately abandoned all their plans for the last Quarter of 2010.
But, more than likely, they saw the general reaction to 4e would have decided to make Essentials regardless of Paizo.

I think that's always going to be likely because of the way edition economics work -- eventually, it becomes hard to sell books (too much material available vs. need). More telling perhaps is the direction they have taken 5e, but there are other factors there as well (just look at 4e vs. the prior edition).

From my point of view, this need to change the rules ever so often is a very mixed blessing.

Well, yeah. But the lifespan of 4e was short and had a lot of change. And I don't think the presence of Pathfinder greatly shortened the edition. 4e might have been able to squeak out another year, but I think Essentials would still have come out when it did and the reaction (and cancellation) would still have happened. But they may have delayed the start of 5e for six months or a year.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, not saying I'm not glad to hear about that, but I'd like to read it somewhere. Do you have some links to share, [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]?

Start with the quarterly reports, and then go on to the conference calls and management remarks. Prepare for some heavy reading/listening.

Last i checked Games was up 6% from last year, and Boys (the former 800 pound guerrilla) was down 17%. And that was pre-Christmas, where Games shines. Girls is doing exceptionally well also. They then broke down where Games revenue is coming from, and it's mostly WOtC. None of that used to be the case. WOTC used to be almost an afterthought.

 

[Cadence]

Start with the quarterly reports, and then go on to the conference calls and management remarks. Prepare for some heavy reading/listening.

The latest Hasbro quarterly report wasn't as transparent about subdivisions as I had hoped (lots of games lumped together... MtG was mentioned positively, was WotC reported separately at all?)

 

[Mistwell]

The latest Hasbro quarterly report wasn't as transparent about subdivisions as I had hoped (lots of games lumped together... MtG was mentioned positively, was WotC reported separately at all?)

They broke out the Games section, and in that chart WOTC was highlighted as the dominant portion. That didn't used to be the case.

 

[Lokiare]

Again, the ICv2 report covers July - Sept, during which only two Essentials products were released and several traditional 4e products were released. This was the quarter Pathfinder reached 4e, which means it had to be making some progress in gaining prior and/or 4e had to be losing sales. Again, this was all before Essentials really made its mark.

You might what to blame Essentials for the fall of 4e, but the decline started much earlier.


It doesn't take a year to get a book out, no. It takes three months to get it out a couple months to write and another to edit and layout. But books are scheduled a year in advance. Right now, WotC has an idea what they're releasing in January 2015. Earlier in the edition, prior to them cancelling books left and right, they'd often announce products that would be out the following year. The big GenCon 2010 book was Dark Sun which was announced back at GenCon 2009.
This is pretty standard. We know Paizo's releases for 2014 a good year in advance too.

Essentials came out in Q3-4 2010 which means it was planned back in 2009, likely the summer before GenCon and prior to Pathfinder even being released.
Again, so before they had any competition pulling away sales they were planning to revamp the line.


So I'm just meant to take you on your word? Because you got yourself banned and don't want to even skim a site looking for a link.
And WotC doesn't ban for no reason. They have the Terms and Conditions on the site and are pretty good at referencing them when they edit a post.

I can send you the email where they literally say they banned me because they could if you want.

Essentials format was planned from the start. They had it on a shelf waiting to get worked on literally from before 4E was released. They even said as much.

I'm wondering why you are unable to type a few words into a search box to verify what I said? I'm simply not going to deal with them or their website because of how they handled 4E on the business side and how they handled their potential customers on their forums. No one should support them for that reason alone, whether they like what they've done to the game or not.

Regardless this is waaay off topic and has been discussed to death. I suggest you look it up on the WotC forums. There are numerous threads that go over it and they all come to the same conclusions which I espoused here.

The reason 5E is in trouble is because WotC has very little business sense and has design issues. They can no longer bank on the D&D brand name to win customers...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm simply not going to deal with them or their website because of how they handled 4E on the business side and how they handled their potential customers on their forums. No one should support them for that reason alone, whether they like what they've done to the game or not.

were I can understand not wanting to deal with a company that did something against you, I'm not sure if someone who never had a problem with them could possible feel it worth cutting ties to a company for what they did to someone they don't even know.

I really think if you like the game you should support the game. If you don't like the game you shouldn't.

 

[Cadence]

They broke out the Games section, and in that chart WOTC was highlighted as the dominant portion. That didn't used to be the case.

The Q1 and Q3 2013 they have Magic listed all over the place in the files... but skimming and using search I couldn't find Wizards or WotC in any of them. In Q2 2013 they show inventory is up for WotC but don't mention the money.

Am I looking in the wrong place http://investor.hasbro.com/results.cfm , or is it in a non-searchable graph that I skimmed over?

Thanks!

 

[Jester David]

I can send you the email where they literally say they banned me because they could if you want.ss sense and has design issues. They can no longer bank on the D&D brand name to win customers...

Sure. You should have access to my email via my profile. If not, why not throw a screen shot of the email (with contact details blurred) into Dropbox and post the link.

Essentials format was planned from the start. They had it on a shelf waiting to get worked on literally from before 4E was released. They even said as much.
ss sense and has design issues. They can no longer bank on the D&D brand name to win customers..

I listened to podcast recordings of Winter Fantasy 2010. Likely the Tome Show. But it could also have been a GenCon while they were hyping a Essentials.
I do recall them saying new player friendly products were planned from the start. But that's different than saying they planned to permanently redesign how they handled classes and release future books in digest format (which they looked like they were planning on doing before they delayed Heroes of Shadow and turned it into a hardcover.

I think they were planning a newbie book or starter set, but then decided to make an entire product line.

I'm wondering why you are unable to type a few words into a search box to verify what I said? I'm simply not going to deal with them or their website because of how they handled 4E on the business side and how they handled their potential customers on their forums. No one should support them for that reason alone, whether they like what they've done to the game or not.

Regardless this is waaay off topic and has been discussed to death. I suggest you look it up on the WotC forums. There are numerous threads that go over it and they all come to the same conclusions which I espoused here.ss sense and has design issues. They can no longer bank on the D&D brand name to win customers...

We're having a debate/discussion. The burden of proving your arguments rests on you. The burden of disproving your arguments or proving my own rests on me.
Oh, oh, and until recently I regularly frequented the WotC forums and while these topics have been discussed frequently over there, there was never anything resembling a consensus, let alone a conclusion.

The reason 5E is in trouble is because WotC has very little business sense and has design issues. They can no longer bank on the D&D brand name to win customers...

Okay, now we're back on topic.
Keep in mind while it used to legally be conserved a person, WotC is not an individual. WotC does not lack business sense; people at WotC lack business sense. And most of the staff associated with 4e including the brand manager have left WotC. And, having made bad decisions and seen bad decisions made, hopefully the current staff will have learned a lesson. We don't know much about the current team's business sense; although I really liked the late 4e books from 2011, which speaks well to their design chops.

 

[DaveMage]

WotC clearly has some business sense or they would not have been able to sustain Magic: The Gathering for all of these years.

I just don't think the D&D RPG is "right-sized" for them in this day and age.

 

[Mistwell]

I can send you the email where they literally say they banned me because they could if you want.

you should just post it. i am guessing your 'interpretation' of what happened is perhaps coming from a particular perspective which not everyone would share.

Essentials format was planned from the start. They had it on a shelf waiting to get worked on literally from before 4E was released. They even said as much.

they did not 'say as much' from what i saw. Link?

I'm wondering why you are unable to type a few words into a search box to verify what I said? I'm simply not going to deal with them or their website because of how they handled 4E on the business side and how they handled their potential customers on their forums. No one should support them for that reason alone, whether they like what they've done to the game or not.

because you had a bad experience, everyone should behave like you? Man that is quite the sense of entitlement you have going there.

[quote[The reason 5E is in trouble is because WotC has very little business sense[/quote]

Right. You minored in Business in college, so you could run the D&D division and know what is and is not good business sense. Or so you told us.

and has design issues. They can no longer bank on the D&D brand name to win customers...

It's the most talked about rpg, and intent-to-buy polls all show strong initial interest in the core books. so, apparently they can.