Why is 4e like World of Warcraft?

[The Eternal GM]

Not a 4th Ed. hater... Just not as impressed as some/most/whatever.

4th Ed. does use many of the archetype names from CoH/CoV, albeit with different functions to that game.

The fact that 'class' which has always dictated function now also needs an archetype makes it feel MMO-like to me (or more honestly just dumbed down) since it seems like they're about ready to dispense with class in favour of archetype.

The abilities shared by archetypes ARE very similar. The wizards stands out because he's the only controller, the rest... It's more or less armour restrictions and nothing else. (no doubt millions disagree, so feel free to argue the toss if you like, but this is a 'in my experience' observation after playing KotSF twice through).

But most obviously, Video games are just more omnipresent now than they were at 3rd Editions launch. The designers have clearly put in aspects of these games and MMO's because they are successful and enjoyed there, they hope that it'll work on the tabletop.

The 'everyone gets powers to replace mundane action, required or not' attitude also remind people of WoW. The Wizard particularly does for me.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Ok, here's the deal. I don't want any stupid flame wars in here, because my threads are awesome. Dig it.

Then naming a thread with "4e haters" isn't a good start.

4e haters is not an appropriate term to use - it is divisive, aggressive and unhelpful so don't do it.

 

[Destil]

WoW is based on a home brew D&D campaign by one of Blizzard's senior designers. Metzen I believe.

That is why this topic always fails. They have it backwards: WoW is like D&D!

Always has been; almost all popular fantasy computer / counsel games can trace their origins back to D&D.

[I'll concede there's some cross-pollination at this point... Even though I'll shout the above points until blue in the face, the wizard class illustration made me think of WoW for nothing more than the insane shoulders]

 

[Twowolves]

Just for argument's sake, here is why I think D&D 4e is NOT like WoW:

1. Characters of the same race and class are not identical. Even if, in 4e, they're so similar that they are almost identical (which I don't believe to be the case), they're still not identical. The single differentiating factor on a WoW character of a specific "build" is its magical items, or "gear".
2. PCs matter. In WoW, you are one of millions of "heroes". What is it the critics keep saying about "if everyone is special, no one is?"
3. WoW rewards PCs based almost solely on their available free time. D&D has a much more dynamic reward system that takes up less of your precious time.
4. If you think D&D has "magic item dependency" you have never played WoW. You are literally nothing without your magical items, and they are given to you based on both luck and time invested in the game, above any other factor.
5. I've heard that 4e is WoW because all the classes are "balanced". Well, I've got news for some of you: WoW is about as balanced as a tricycle with a tractor tire. You're smoking concrete if you think WoW classes are balanced. Even worse, the balance constantly shifts, so one month you might be sitting pretty only to be laid low to the ground next month. At least in 4e you don't *have* to use all the new material.

1. Each class in WoW has three "Talent Trees", areas unique to each class that you can advance at each level past nine, each with tiers of advancement and you can mix and match each. Sound 4th ed familiar?

2. PC's matter, huh? Just like in the Forgotten Realms I'll bet. *roll* It's s MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, you cannot have each WoW player be capable of changing the world and possibly thereby ruining it for the other million people playing it. When organized 4th ed play comes along, it too will be just as massive (well, sorta) and PCs there will "matter" just as much.

3. Rewards based on free time? Ignoring the fact that the longer you are logged out in WoW, the longer your "double xp" meter fills up notwithstanding (a device specifically to reward those who CANNOT devote massive ammounts of time to the game), try getting xp or loot in D&D when you don't devote any free time to show up to your game session. This arguement is such a non-starter. You can't get any rewards if you don't play. Duh.

4. Magic Item dependancy? Welcome to 1-3.5 ed of D&D. Time will tell how far this goes in 4th. In OD&D and 1st ed, a fighter was litterally nothing but a pile of hit points with out magic items.

5. You don't have to buy expansions for WoW either. And if you are in a campagin in D&D and the DM and all the other players but you buy the latest splatbook and use the rules, you can either have the new rules affect you or quit playing, just like in an MMORPG.

Seriously, if you are going to slam the comparisons between D&D and MMORPGs, pick better points.

 

[Casupaa]

Ok, here's the deal. I don't want any stupid flame wars in here, because my threads are awesome. Dig it.

Here's the cheese. I keep hearing people say that 4e is like "World of Warcraft", a very successful Mummorpig. To tell you the truth, I'm pretty clueless as to why. Maybe someone can help me out, because so far I haven't met anyone that can articulate to me why D&D 4e is "like WoW" or "Mummorpig-ish" without sounding like a troll who just doesn't like that they added in new races; but if you can do better, then feel free to chime in.

Just for argument's sake, here is why I think D&D 4e is NOT like WoW:

1. Characters of the same race and class are not identical. Even if, in 4e, they're so similar that they are almost identical (which I don't believe to be the case), they're still not identical. The single differentiating factor on a WoW character of a specific "build" is its magical items, or "gear".
2. PCs matter. In WoW, you are one of millions of "heroes". What is it the critics keep saying about "if everyone is special, no one is?"
3. WoW rewards PCs based almost solely on their available free time. D&D has a much more dynamic reward system that takes up less of your precious time.
4. If you think D&D has "magic item dependency" you have never played WoW. You are literally nothing without your magical items, and they are given to you based on both luck and time invested in the game, above any other factor.
5. I've heard that 4e is WoW because all the classes are "balanced". Well, I've got news for some of you: WoW is about as balanced as a tricycle with a tractor tire. You're smoking concrete if you think WoW classes are balanced. Even worse, the balance constantly shifts, so one month you might be sitting pretty only to be laid low to the ground next month. At least in 4e you don't *have* to use all the new material.

Basicly, your pointing out differences in a PnP game and a MMORPG. I think you are the one "smoking concrete" if you can't see that 4E is a big step towards WoW. If thats a good thing or a bad thing, I am not to judge.

OOT: Considering the WoW content, it is a very balanced MMO. 4E will never come close to that balance, and it shouldn't.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Then naming a thread with "4e haters" isn't a good start.

4e haters is not an appropriate term to use - it is divisive, aggressive and unhelpful so don't do it.

Dude! Pulling aggro! Awesome! Totally awesome!

 

[Doug McCrae]

1. Names of class roles. These came from City of Heroes. Not WoW, but still an mmorpg.
2. Better class balance. I don't agree with you that WoW has imbalanced classes, it's just the players are very sensitive to tiny differences, they make mountains out of moleholes on the forums. Ofc class balance is a feature of any good class-based game, not just mmorpgs. The real linking factor here is that WoW and 4e are both good games.
3. All classes have special powers with similar per use limitations. All classes are equally complex. This was a consequence of better class balance and the need to move away from the everyone-is-bored-most-of-the-time paradigm D&D's been hobbled by for more than 30 years.
4. Stickier tanks.
5. Everyone can do dps.
6. Wider level range. Going from 20->30 is quite minor mind you, compared with WoW's 1-70 (soon to be 80).
7. Sweet spot extended across the whole level range. Team game works across the level range. The basic WoW team PvE game of tanks tanking and healer healing works from very low levels onwards, practically the whole range. Prior to 4e, the D&D team game broke down at high levels cause casters wtf pwn, not to mention bbq-ing. In the 1e DMG Gary says you don't need other players once characters reach high level. I see that as a bug, not a feature.
8. Disenchanting magic items. Pretty trivial but I'm sure it was inspired by mmos.
9. The DDI. Unlike WoW the whole thing is tightly human moderated ie there are DMs but it is online and it has the same price structure as WoW.

 

[Shazman]

I would say that the main reasons are
1) Instead of casting a spell or swinging a sword really hard, you use powers. It doesn't get much more videogamey than this. Am I supposed to hit triangle +R1 to do my daily power or do I roll a d20?
2) Refresh times that make no sense. Why can't a fighter or rogue use their martial daily powers more than once a day? The same goes for encounter powers. Why can I only smack someone really hard once a day or once an encounter? This really feels like the cool-downs from WOW and other MMORPGs. Seriously.
3) Every class has a basic progression that is only slightly modified by abilitiy scores and feats. All the powers are very similiar. They do similar damage for each level for each class. The main differces are: I move this guy one square this way, he can't move for 1 round, or you get a +2 to hit him. It feels like building a video game character by picking talents from talen trees.
4) You are expected to play and completely shoehorned into filling one of the combat roles. WOW tank, controller, dps, and healer, anyone?

 

[neceros]

4E - Why is 4e like World of Warcraft?

It's not.

 

[Doug McCrae]

4) You are expected to play and completely shoehorned into filling one of the combat roles. WOW tank, controller, dps, and healer, anyone?

You're talking about EverQuest, not WoW. WoW is full of cat drurids, shadow priests and warriors who don't even own a shield.