• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Why is archery the prefered combat style?

Felon said:
a heavy one loses energy in flight faster than a light one.

Really, then why does a 5.56 become unstable and tumble well before a 7.62? You have it backward, removing firing platform stability from the question the farther you're shooting the heavier a projectile you want to keep it stable and cut down on wind drift. Now ideally you'd want a small hypervelocity round that was extremely dense for the best of all worlds, but we don't always get what we want.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I do think it's a bit silly that while in reality, lots of soldiers used bows and lots of soldiers used crossbows, in D&D no soldiers ever use crossbows. Both weapons should be usable and have their good points and bad points - like the battle axe versus the longsword. They're both decent weapons, but one hurts a lot when it criticals, and the other hurts tons when it criticals but not as often. You certainly wouldn't think someone a fool for favouring one over the other, but that's how it is with crossbows and bows.

Giving up your strength bonus to damage and your multiple attacks (without rapid reload) is just too big a price to pay. Why aren't there "mighty" crossbows? You still have to :):):):) the thing, and a more powerful crossbow would require a stronger operator to :):):):), especially if you're doing it multiple times in a round.

Edit: Oh for goodness sake, I can't say :):):):)? Okay, replace the replacements above with "prepare to fire".
 

Nail said:
Felon, think that one through again. You know that's not the case.

If the amount of energy that goes into projecting two objects is equal, than the heavier object loses velocity faster, because it takes more energy to keep it moving forward. You cannot throw 100 lb shotput farther than a 10 lb shotput just because its heavier. Now, if you can ratchet up the amount of energy that goes into projecting it, then your shotput is a cannonball.
 

If two objects have the same energy but different masses then the one with less mass will be traveling faster and objects which travel faster lose energy faster due to friction assuming equal surface areas and types.

Is that what you mean?
 

I'm not talking about friction. I'm saying that thanks to inertia, more energy is expended up front getting the object to move. There's less left ever to keep it going. Yes, the heavier object will do more damage if you can boost the amount of energy moving it, but in this discussion we're talking about an xbow, which due to its much smaller armspan, has to have its pull seriously ratched up to match a longbow, much less exceed it. And the armspan is the real factor in the comparison, not the weight of the projectiles--I'm not sure why we'd just assume that arrows and bolts are so extremely disparate in mass.
 

If you are not talking about friction then there is no need for energy to keep it moving. It will keep on going until it hits some sort of resistance.
 

Heh. When I say I'm not talking about friction, I'm not saying it doesn't exist--although even without friction, objects don't keep traveling at the same velocity forever. You need energy if you want to smash.

I do feel I should qualify my statement though. At shorter ranges, the heavy object does have more energy.
 

Gort said:
Giving up your strength bonus to damage and your multiple attacks (without rapid reload) is just too big a price to pay. Why aren't there "mighty" crossbows? You still have to :):):):) the thing, and a more powerful crossbow would require a stronger operator to :):):):), especially if you're doing it multiple times in a round.

There definitely should be mighty xbows. Anyone else ever read Karl Edward Wagner's Kane story, "Cold Light"?

Xbows have a real-world advantage in that once they're loaded, they're at the ready. You can point a crossbow at someone and have them covered. But in D20 there's not much provision for getting the drop on someone. If you play D20 Modern, it can feel downright silly to point a gun at someone who's flat-footed and say "freeze". Go ahead and shoot, they'll just get their defense bonus and chance the shot.

Of course, the act of drawing should be problematic sometimes, but oddly enough, arrows enjoy the benefit of being just about the only thing in the D20 universe that don't require a separate action to draw. You want to whip out a dart, a shuriken, a knife, a spoon, that's a move action. Draw an arrow, that's just part of the attack. See, I don't think it's that xbows suck nearly as much as it is that the bow has been specially advantaged.
 

Quoted from Wikipedia, on their articles on crossbows and longbows. Also, yes, I realized this is tl;dr, and I realize that many people don't consider Wikipedia a reputable source, but its a better source than anecdotal evidence or hearsay.

"The crossbow prod is very short compared to ordinary bows, resulting in a short draw length. This makes crossbows less efficient at releasing energy, and to compensate they must have very heavy draw weights"

Crossbows require a harder draw for equal force. This is why there are no mighty crossbows. A heavy crossbow is hitting with more force than a longbow, though. This is presumably because crossbow technology continued to improve.

"In later years the bolt of a crossbow had enough kinetic energy to penetrate any chainmail and most plate armor hit squarely: some reached a draw force of nearly 1600 N (350 lbf), compared to the 300-900 N (60-180 lbf) draw force for a longbow. Moreover, crossbows could be kept cocked and ready to shoot for some time with little effort, allowing crossbowmen to aim better."

"There are no surviving longbows prior to the 15th century but more than 130 from the Renaissance period exist (see Surviving bows). Descriptions range in length from 1.2 to 2.11 m (4 ft 1 to 6 ft 11 in). They were made from imported yew in preference, although ash and other woods were also used. Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Estimates made on examples from the Mary Rose, typically had draw forces of 72–82 kgf (706–804 N, 160–180 lbf ). A modern longbow's draw is typically 60 lbf (27 kgf) or less. Today, there are few modern longbowmen capable of using 180 lbf bows accurately."


900 N was pretty much the top end for Welsh longbows. That means that a heavy crossbow in D&D, which is one of those that indeed, does have an insanely powerful pull mechanism should be doing more damage. Also, more quoting from Wikipedia:

"To penetrate chain mail armour, many war arrows had 'chisel' (or 'bodkin') heads and were quite massive. Bodkin arrows have tips like elongated pyramids, which result in a very sharp and very narrow point. With their bodkin points these massive war arrows probably weighed around 65 to 100 grams (1000 to 1500 grains, grain being a unit of measure often used for arrows and bullets). This is 2 or 3 times the weight of the wooden or aluminum arrows that are used today and 4 to 5 times the weight of modern carbon fiber arrows or pre 20th century 'flight arrows', used in distance shooting contests."

"The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Modern champion archers maintain that you cannot 'guarantee' a hit on an individual target at more than 80 yards with any bow whatsoever. Most of the longer range shooting mentioned in stories was not marksmanship, but rather thousands of archers throwing volleys of arrows at an entire army. As they were aiming at a large mass at a particular distance, they could extend their range substantially."


So longbowmen had to not only worry about what kind of ammo they were using, as to penetrate armor, they had to pretty much halve or third their range and accuracy....but they also had problems shooting at longer range.

"Although an expertly handled longbow had greater range, equal accuracy and faster shooting rate than an average crossbow, the value of the crossbow came in its simplicity: it could be used effectively after a week of training, while a comparable single-shot skill with a longbow could take years of practice. The invention of pushlever and ratchet drawing mechanisms enabled the use of crossbows on horseback."

There's the real reason that crossbows were used. Cheaper soldiers, and you could utilize crossbow cavalry. This was -TERRIBLY- deadly. Crossbowmen were the premiere soldiers during the Crusades, and mounted crossbow.

As for guns, taken from the Arquebus article:

"As low-velocity firearms, they were used against enemies that were often partially or fully protected by steel-plate armour. Plate armour was the high standard in European combat from about 1400 until the middle of the 17th century. This was essentially the era of the arquebus. Good suits of plate would usually stop an arquebus ball at long range. It was a common practice to "proof" (test) armour by firing a pistol or arquebus at a new breastplate. The small dent would be circled by engraving, to call attention to it."

"The arquebus came into prominence during the Battle of Pavia in 1525 in which 3000 arquebusiers defeated 8000 French knights, thus ending the knight's domination in Europe. The defeat of these knights by the heavy fire of Spanish arquebusiers inspired other people to adopt the weapon. Arquebusiers also played an important role in Cristóvão da Gama's battles against the superior numbers of his Muslim opponents in Ethiopia during the 1540s, and later in the Moroccan victory over the Songhai Empire at the Battle of Tondibi in 1590."


Yes, gunpowder arms were -FAR- less accurate(which gave them a lower effective range), and slower-firing than their crossbow and longbow counterparts. But they could -SHRED- plate armors like nothing else. This made for a terribly deadly weapon during sieges, and on the defensive, and even mounted soldiers could run up, get their shots off, and then engage in regular mounted combat, decimating whatever troops are left after the initial volley.


***********
Also, the crossbow is a totally great mook weapon and great for loads of mooks to use. They're deadlier in the hands of noobs than longbows, when you're wanting to do as much damage with the few hits that land. Additionally, you only really need a few feats to be good with a crossbow. Much like in real life, if you're a professional archer who does nothing else and has the feats: Take the longbow. If its your secondary weapon, or you're not a primary fighter, or you want the extra damage and don't have the strength to take advantage of a heavy pull bow: Take the crossbow
 
Last edited:

Felon said:
Heh. When I say I'm not talking about friction, I'm not saying it doesn't exist--although even without friction, objects don't keep traveling at the same velocity forever.

Yes they do. Newton's first law of motion. an object will remain at rest or in motion at constant velocity unless acted upon by an external force.

Without friction, to slow an object down, or gravity, to change its direction, an object would indeed continue moving forever at the same velocity.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top