Why is Dragonlance Your Least Favorite Setting?

[Randolpho]

As anyone knows, it hasn't been since the early fifties...

[off topic]

I thought Nixon took the U.S. off the Gold Standard as President, not Vice President. That'd be '70s, wouldn't it?

I was born the year Nixon quit, so I kinda missed most of it. But that's what I heard.

[/off topic]

 

[Sigma]

About Steel Coins, to Sigma :


Yes, indeed, we don't use oil as a currency, but we don't use any other base, stragegic, material as a currency either anymore !
We use only paper money ! And actually the paper dollar is the reference. And the first to reply that dollar is guaranteed by gold will have the disagreable answer of my ill-breathed, uncontrollable laughter in his face (for which I apologize in advance)! As anyone knows, it hasn't been since the early fifties...
So in a world were exchange rates are not fixed by the availability of any material, but by other means, the comparison is not valuable.

In a world where (refined) iron is not so easy to come by (like... any medieval setting), it is not so stupid. And, by the way, in the 13th-15th century in Western Europe, iron and/or steel bars were used to pay Privateers and even Markgraves and Other nobles, so they could finance their canon-making and armament.

So I don't think it stupid, and, on the contrary, it may be one of the, in fact, rarest original and well-thought insights in any RPG fantasy world.

Yeah, but steel and iron bars were used to pay in the form of exchange, not as an acutal currency. Look at currencies throughout history. What are they made from? Gold, silver, copper, bronze-metals that are soft and easy to form so that you can stamp someone's name on it (which is where the value comes from for most currencies, the gov't backing it up, not necessarily the rarity of the material). Steel isn't good for making coins. It's good for making weapons and armor. Now, it's possible that because steel is so valuable, you'd use it as a reference for value. So you could say something is worth a pound of steel (just as, iirc, the english pound was worth a pound of silver at one point) w/o actually using a pound of steel for the transaction. Steel's got a lot of important uses in industry and military, and in a world where it is rare, it makes no sense whatsoever to tie it up in coins.

So, I disagree. It's original alright, but not in a good way. Raddishes make a better form of currency than steel, and would be equally original.

 

[Michael Tree]

(which is where the value comes from for most currencies, the gov't backing it up, not necessarily the rarity of the material).

In the modern day that is true, but in medieval times (which Dragonlance is based on) that couldn't be more wrong. Medieval coins essentially were exchange items, valuable only because of their precious metal content. The only reason why some coin mintings were trusted more than others was that certain mintings were known to be more pure than others. Medieval coins were virtually never pure silver or gold, but were debased with more common metals like copper and silver (for gold coins). This didn't vary randomly, but was a deliberate choice of the ruler who minted them, and often influenced by inflation or the wealth of the ruler.

So, if, for example, Louis the 11th's coins were more vaulable and trusted than King John of Aragon's, it was because Louis's coins were more pure than John's, not because Louis was a strong king who could somehow "guarantee" his currency.

Steel's got a lot of important uses in industry and military, and in a world where it is rare, it makes no sense whatsoever to tie it up in coins.

While I agree that steel is an odd choice for coins, economics that are a result of history often don't "make sense" from an a-priori design perspective.

IIRC, the practice of using "steel coins" originated in a period of instability (after the cataclysm?), where travellers and traders started using dwarf-smithed arrowheards as trade items, because they had a stable value, in terms of weight, uniform quality of steel, and difficulty to duplicate. Over time this developed into a steel currency.

So, I disagree. It's original alright, but not in a good way. Raddishes make a better form of currency than steel, and would be equally original.

But not nearly as stable. Ask the dutch about tulip bulbs.

 

[Sigma]

In the modern day that is true, but in medieval times (which Dragonlance is based on) that couldn't be more wrong. Medieval coins essentially were exchange items, valuable only because of their precious metal content. The only reason why some coin mintings were trusted more than others was that certain mintings were known to be more pure than others. Medieval coins were virtually never pure silver or gold, but were debased with more common metals like copper and silver (for gold coins). This didn't vary randomly, but was a deliberate choice of the ruler who minted them, and often influenced by inflation or the wealth of the ruler.

So, if, for example, Louis the 11th's coins were more vaulable and trusted than King John of Aragon's, it was because Louis's coins were more pure than John's, not because Louis was a strong king who could somehow "guarantee" his currency.

Fair enough. You're right that it was really more the advent of banking that pulled the gov't into it. When you started trading paper that represented X pounds of silver, with the understanding that if you went to the bank issuing it, you could actually get silver for your worthless paper.

But that still leaves the point that if most midevil coins were gold and silver with a cheaper metal, how do you pull the feat off with steel? It's not like you can mix steel with copper and still have it be steel.

While I agree that steel is an odd choice for coins, economics that are a result of history often don't "make sense" from an a-priori design perspective.

IIRC, the practice of using "steel coins" originated in a period of instability (after the cataclysm?), where travellers and traders started using dwarf-smithed arrowheards as trade items, because they had a stable value, in terms of weight, uniform quality of steel, and difficulty to duplicate. Over time this developed into a steel currency.

Neat story, never knew there was even a half way decent reason for steel coins, though I still find it implausable such a thing would occur. Economic choices aren't without rhyme and reason. Gold, silver, and copper were used in RL because they're not very good metals for other purposes. They're too soft. That also makes them easy to mint, and in a midevil society, you aren't going to have a big group of smithy class people to spend time making steel to make coins. If nothing else, iron would be a better material to make coins out of. It's naturally occuring, easier to mint, and requires less skill and technological know-how to work.

But hey, it's mostly just me finding another reason not to like a setting I don't care for. I suppose it's just fantasy after all, and the dwarf story makes a decent backstory for the choice of steel coins.

But not nearly as stable. Ask the dutch about tulip bulbs.

Ah, but they possess one advantage over tulip bulbs. They're tastey.

 

[Blade!]

I like Dragonlance alot... but I HATE everything in the so called 2nd cataclysm (Dragons of Summer Flame onwards). Why change the world to a new freaky thing? Why not just make a new campaign world if they didn't like Dragonlance the way it was?

 

[Irysangel]

Oooh!

I think I got B4: The Lost City instead. Now that was a cool module (although it made little sense and glossed over the "lost city" just when it was getting good).

Zargon lives!

Oooh! This was my first module ever! I think my PC died about 6 times in a row, and she had to be reincarnated about a bazillion times (I was a noob, and kept getting upset when my character would die, so I got an easy out). I think I started the game as an elf and ended it as a Centaur with a constitution of 8 or some such.

 

[Randolpho]

I like Dragonlance alot... but I HATE everything in the so called 2nd cataclysm (Dragons of Summer Flame onwards). Why change the world to a new freaky thing? Why not just make a new campaign world if they didn't like Dragonlance the way it was?

Hmm.... um..... marketing?

 

[Kai Lord]

Re: Re: Re: Dragonlance for D&D3e/d20

As you may or may not know, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (i.e. the "core book") is being written by Sovereign Press but is being developed, edited, and published by Wizards of the Coast. The FR book set the standard in how WotC campaign worlds are presented, and yes, we do have copies in our office to reference. The outline we originally created was done to match the structure and flow of information found in the impressive FR book.

That said, our book will capture the feel of Dragonlance, and while still full of the "crunchy bits" many gamers love, we are also including lots of world information, flavor, legends, mythology--all of the elements that make Krynn what it is. I believe it will appeal to both min-maxing hack 'n slashers (dual-wielding minotaur barbarians!) and those who love the novels.

Jamie Chambers
Sovereign Press, Inc.

That's good to hear. So does that mean Sovereign Press or WOTC will be providing the artwork? I hope its the latter. The art in the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks blows the doors off of anything I've seen from Sovereign Press. If you guys are taking care of the illustrations, I sure hope you spare no expense in getting the best artists possible. Nothing in all of 1st Edition AD&D could compare to the art in the old DL. Aspire to be the best.

 

[Michael Tree]

But that still leaves the point that if most midevil coins were gold and silver with a cheaper metal, how do you pull the feat off with steel? It's not like you can mix steel with copper and still have it be steel.[/B]

All the more reason why steel coins make a strong standard. Debasement was a problem with silver and gold coins, not a feature.

Neat story, never knew there was even a half way decent reason for steel coins, though I still find it implausable such a thing would occur.
...
If nothing else, iron would be a better material to make coins out of. It's naturally occuring, easier to mint, and requires less skill and technological know-how to work.

Oh I agree. Making coins of iron would probably make more sense than steel, if only because it's easier to work and can be melted down easier. I'm arguing that it makes perfect sense, just that it's not as implausible as many assert. Besides, the nature of the coinage certainly isn't important enough a factor to make or break a setting, IMO.

 

[Ravellion]

But not nearly as stable. Ask the dutch about tulip bulbs.

{Grumble} USD going down in value... {complain, mutter}

I don't know jack about tulips actually, but what I do know is that steel coins are very irritating and stupid. You paid about 6 steel coins for a steel mace which was far heavier than the coins were!

I actually like the DL dragons: Smaller and affected by the world at large. They should just all have the following ablity IMO:

Dragon Immunity (SU): Can not be hurt by weapons of any kind, with the exception of the natural wepaons and breath weapons of other dragons, and Dragonlances.

Rav