Why is Eberron being pushed so hard?

[WizarDru]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this.

Sorry, should have been more clear. I meant that most of the authors on your list were a direct inspiration for the original designers of D&D, and elements of their work can be found throughout the game. Many items, monsters and spells come directly from these sources, and much of the feel of the orignal game and 1e were directly taken from said sources.

Greyhawk isn't internally consistent, because it was never built to be that way. It was a junk drawers of 'cool ideas' that Gary, Rob, Ernie and others tossed together while playing. They grabbed Vance's magic system, Moorcock's alignment ideas, Tolkien's races and other elements, and threw them together in a 'stone soup' kind of way, for a fun game. It was never meant to bear the scrutiny of a socio-anthropologist.

My point, mainly, was that you said that you didn't think that TSR had ever done a 'classic fantasy' setting, and yet Greyhawk takes elements from at least a half-dozen such entities. I think it would be more appropriate to say that TSR/WotC has never done a direct translation of a specific 'classic fantasy' world, but they've certainly done what I'd consider classic fantasy. Several times, in fact.

 

[WizarDru]

Now you are indulging in the essentially the same parochialism. This may have been the result in Europe, but it was certainly not the result in the USA, in most of Asia, etc.

Beavis: Heh heh. He said parochialism. heh heh.
Butt-head: Shut up, Beavis.

 

[buzz]

Maybe because people keep responding to my postings and asking me questions or making statements that demand a response.

Discretion is the better part of valor.

Its not nescessarily flawed for YOU. if you don't mind Kitchen-sinkism, if you don't have the kind of humanities background I do where Eberron's social unbelievability would bug you, then go nuts. Some people really enjoy kitchen-sinkism, I'm probably in a serious minority on that count.

So, you're saying that I don't see it as flawed because I have bad taste and am not as well educated as you are?

I guess we're seeing the "unwashed masses" argument being applied to yet another D&D product.

Nothing in D&D is truly medieval in that regard, so to take Eberron to task for this is silly.

Bingo.

As I said in the other thread, the point of Eberron is not to say that everything in D&D IS in Eberron; it's that everything in the core books could be in Eberron, if you want it to be. How is this any more "kitchen sinky" than most of the other WotC settings?

Bingo, redux.

Buzz, holder of a humanities degree

 

[fanboy2000]

D&D Setting Design 101

It was impossible to retain a medieval society in the face of the printing press, and mercantilism. It was impossible to retain a renaissance society in the face of industrialization, and it was impossible to retain an absolutist intellectual environment in light of WWI. This was what caused the rise of artistic and intellectual movements like dadaism and surrealism, philosophical concepts of relativism, and counter-movements like fascism.

"You keep using that word. I don't not think it means what you think it means."

You also seem to misunderstand the meaning of fantasy. I'd define it, but what's the point?

Mr. Baker said it best: "[Eberron] is a fantasy world as opposed to an exercise in sociology..."

You know, that bears repeating:

"[Eberron] is a fantasy world as opposed to an exercise in sociology"

Oh, I know "It would have been so great that if they had made it an exersize in sociology! If only they made it more realisistic! Oh HOW could they create a setting that dosen't take into acount all of Earth's history! Oh the pain!"

I understand the argument quite well. And quite frankly, the argument has a few gaping holes in it:

1. Eberron, unlike Earth, has magic.
2. Eberron, unlike Earth, is made out of the body of a dragon.
3. Eberron, unlike Earth, has alternate planes of existance that influance it.
4. Eberron, has cultures who don't nesesarly corispond one-to-one with Earth cultures.
5. Eberron, unlike Earth, has multiple inteligant species living on the world.

It is safe to say that Eberron is not Earth, thus it is not required to follow Earth's history.

The Last War, while analogus to WWI, isn't WWI.

Ok So what have we leard today in Game Design 101?
1. Eberron is not an exersize in sociology.
2. Even if it was, Eberron is fantasy.
3. Eberron is not Earth.
4. The Last War isn't WWI
5. People who are humanities majors can enjoy Eberron (See post above, and the author of this post, Stephen Nicholson, is both egotistical and a humanities major who is currently dating a history major.)
6. Sales of Eberron show that some people want Doc Savage and Indiana Jones
7. Posts at ENWorld.org show that some people want Doc Savage and Indiana Jones

That all for today class. Tonight your homework will be to scoure the internet looking for posts by people who think that world that includes 40-foot diamiter fireballs have a chance of being realistic.

 

[Desdichado]

By the way, I didn't know you can major in humanities. Don't you need something more specific? I have a major in Economics and a minor in history, does that count? My dad has a Ph.D. in history, and that rubbed off on me too; that must count for something, right? I also read tecnical linguistic journals for fun.

None of which I think qualifies me to speak on the relative "realism" of Eberron's social development. But maybe my background doesn't qualify as sufficiently "humanities" centered.

 

[Nisarg]

Now you are indulging in the essentially the same parochialism. This may have been the result in Europe, but it was certainly not the result in the USA, in most of Asia, etc.

No, I'm not, because Eberron's trope is clearly European. The "big war" happened in the main continent, not a far off land.
Also, the "medieval" theme is specifically European.. you can certainly have "medieval china", but you're talking about a whole different thing.

Nisarg

 

[Kestrel]

If anything, this thread has made me very curious about Eberron. The idea of a world where magic item creation is a part of the setting and where I can use swashbuckling, pulp, and standard dnd elements all at the same time sounds great.

The core rules of DnD have never really made sense anyway, especially if you try to view from a true dark-ages perspective. Better to scrap the dark-ages and just play the game. Honestly, if you want to play dark-ages, you should just play Harn.

 

[Desdichado]

No, I'm not, because Eberron's trope is clearly European. The "big war" happened in the main continent, not a far off land.
Also, the "medieval" theme is specifically European.. you can certainly have "medieval china", but you're talking about a whole different thing.

Here you're further trying to relate the development of a fantasy world to the real world. I think that's the root of your disconnect -- divorce the two and you'll be fine. There's absolutely no reason to dictate a specifically earth-like development of social structures in a fantasy world, so relating it so tightly to medieval Europe is a misguided attempt to begin with.

 

[Nisarg]

Discretion is the better part of valor.
So, you're saying that I don't see it as flawed because I have bad taste and am not as well educated as you are?

I guess we're seeing the "unwashed masses" argument being applied to yet another D&D product.

No, that's not my point at all.

I'm saying that your INTEREST in an rpg sense might be different from mine. You could be just as well educated, but if your interest skews toward technology, or the sciences, or what have you, it might just not bother you that Eberron is sociologically unrealistic. It doesn't make you less educated at all. It just makes your needs and priorities different.

I am personally a great believer in the "masses" of roleplayers, and that they generally pick good stuff to play. I think Eberron will probably be fun for many of them, it just won't be fun for me.

Nisarg

 

[Desdichado]

The core rules of DnD have never really made sense anyway, especially if you try to view from a true dark-ages perspective. Better to scrap the dark-ages and just play the game. Honestly, if you want to play dark-ages, you should just play Harn.

Now, now, Kestrel. Who said anything about the Dark Ages? That's quite distinct from the Medieval period.