Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Roxlimn]

Double Astral Storm in the first round?!?!? Yowzers. It's good for a Cleric, but double Astrals is just so, so, strong. This prayer would be super powerful as a spell.

 

[Goumindong]

I do believe you just summarized the problems people have with astral storm and firestorm being so much better

Wait, so the problem is "these spells would be broken but they aren't because you cant combine them with things that make many wizard spells really strong?"

 

[keterys]

I find it amusing that you think that the paragon paths and epic destinies in the PHB are all that you're going to see.

Pretend that there's a 'High Hierophant' epic destiny that is exactly like Archmage, but for clerics. Does the world end?

Hint: If it does, the problem isn't with the epic destiny, it's with the power.

 

[Roxlimn]

Having just picked out Disintegrate out of a hat, I just figured out that Bigby's Grasping Hands is actually a better Striker power.

(No, actually, that's not true. I've known for a while, but since Disintegrate is being contested, I'll bring out a more optimized power). It's actually lower level than Disintegrate - 15th. You get two hands that each attack for 2d10+Int damage. Bolster that and you can get two attacks for 4d10+Int damage. On two hits, the average damage with the same setup as Two in One Shot earlier is 64 damage. Best of all, if any of them miss, you get to attack again in the next round for the cost of a minor action!

It's actually best if you hit two targets separately - then you're doing 32 ave damage to each one on your first turn as well as immobilizing them. That's using a basic +4 implement on 22 Int only. If they fail to escape, you can use a Standard Action to slam them, doing auto 32 damage to each. Imagine stacking that on a zone damage effect. Ownage again.

keterys:

I think that the Wizard spell Meteor Swarm (and others) was balanced with the class structure and features of Wizard paths in mind, which is probably why they specify "spell" and "wizard power" so often. At the heart of it, a Wizard and a Cleric are not the same, and the manner in which their powers interact with their features cannot be overlooked.

I would no sooner dismiss Strikers without considering their Quarry, Sneak Attack, and Curse features.

If such a cleric class were to become printed, then I think the problem is with that class, not with the powers themselves.

 

[Ahglock]

I find it amusing that you think that the paragon paths and epic destinies in the PHB are all that you're going to see.

Pretend that there's a 'High Hierophant' epic destiny that is exactly like Archmage, but for clerics. Does the world end?

Hint: If it does, the problem isn't with the epic destiny, it's with the power.

In some ways I think the epic destiny is a problem, since apparently its the patch to fix the wizard so it can actually perform its role of doing AoE damage better than a leader can.

I love spakle but you know sometimes its just better to fix the problem and not just patch it up.

 

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:

No, that's not true, either. Paragon Battle Mage has Closing Spell - competitive with Firestorm for the daily, encounter spells better. Bloodmage has Bolstering Blood which pretty much pimps every damage spell he throws. It gets downright sick with Blood Pulse and ongoing damage effects like Stinking Cloud and Evard's. I haven't checked out Spellstorm Mage yet, but Maelstrom looks like a great setup spell, and his features are decent.

Storm Cage looks good, too.

You have to have tried to actually MAKE a Devoted Cleric into an AoE spammer to see why it just won't measure up. Please try. Don't be shy. It can't possibly have anything like the broken insta win that Bolstering Blood + Blood Pulse is.

 

[Goumindong]

I find it amusing that you think that the paragon paths and epic destinies in the PHB are all that you're going to see.

Pretend that there's a 'High Hierophant' epic destiny that is exactly like Archmage, but for clerics. Does the world end?

Hint: If it does, the problem isn't with the epic destiny, it's with the power.

So the problem was with power attack and not frenzied berserker, leap attack, or shock trooper?

No, everything always has to be considered as part of a whole. Not alone. This is even more true in 4e where tactics are much more important and easier to realize.

You have to figure that nearly each and every hit by a wizard power at later levels is going to result in a coup-de-grace by a rogue, ranger, or warlock and the cleric powers aren't. You have to figure that each hit takes an enemy out of the fight at least one round in some capacity. I mean, the rogue might come in and hit an assasins point for [7d6+10d8+9+6+6+12d12 damage(viscious +6 dagger for a dagger master)] 221 damage[possibly much more if that is a vorpal dagger and depending on how you read vorpal] or, if they spend an action point and then follow up with critical opportunity and Deep Dagger Wound that 221 adds another 18+9+6+6+6d12, and 24+9+6+6+6d12 for 381 damage +20 damage/round(Save ends) so a minimum of 401 damage[I am sure there are more potent combinations for rogues, but this is the one i will look at for now] which is over a quarter of the amount of hit points a level 30+ solo monster.

Or even better yet, a ranger which can take advantage of the huge penalties to hit many different attacks for mucho damage(since the ranger gets more advantage from power attack/weapon focus/etc as it can make multiple attacks easier. E.G. Ranger/Fighter - Pit Fighter with +dmg from wisdom and +1/2 level dmg when using an action point. Or Kensai for +4 dmg with the weapon of choice)

And this doesn't even include the punishment that can be put on because others use the opportunity to lay on stunning attacks or the damage that they can dish out as well. E.G. a pit fighting fighter could Force the battle, then Supremacy of Steel[60+6+9+6+8+12d12], and action point into cruel reaper[60+18+12+12+4+6d12+30], then when the enemies turn came up, get another at will for another [30+6+9+6++46d12] and a total of 432 damage.

Get another guy right next to him and its game over.

 

[keterys]

At least until they update Blood Mage to close that loop

So the problem was with power attack and not frenzied berserker, leap attack, or shock trooper?

Wasn't the problem with _all_ of them?

No, everything always has to be considered as part of a whole. Not alone. This is even more true in 4e where tactics are much more important and easier to realize.

No, everything has to be considered . You shouldn't design a power that is wildly more powerful than another, nor should you design a class that makes it so you can't include powers of the proper strength.

If you fail the basic power vs power comparison, you've already failed. If you fail the destiny vs destiny comparison, hey, you've failed. If you don't fail until you combine power and destiny? Well, guess you failed there too.

A class that gets the ability 'You deal 20 damage for every square you push someone with an at-will' and no at-wills that pushed could be declared balanced, but it isn't if you do a multiclass paragon path and start pushing people 8 squares with thunderwave.

Meteor Swarm vs. Astral Storm shows _very clearly_ that there is a problem somewhere. Of course, the problem may well just be with how bad the wizard is, but I think Legion's Hold is a very good daily so clearly it's okay to give the wizard good dailies. So which is the problem - Meteor Swarm or Astral Storm?

You have to figure that nearly each and every hit by a wizard power at later levels is going to result in a coup-de-grace by a rogue, ranger, or warlock and the cleric powers aren't.

Umm. Sleep lets you CdG... that's it for wizard powers on last skim I did.

I am loving the 'Well, because wizards have archmage' or 'blood mage' stuff, though. That's going to make a ton of sense in two years when we have 400 paragon paths and 100 epic destinies.

Clearly, then, the base class or base power will be balanced, because Necromancer Games put out the Player's Guide 7 and it has a cool power that 1/day lets the Wizard really shiny or makes Meteor Swarm ungodly.

Or maybe, just maybe, you should actually balance each piece of the puzzle. Level 29 daily should compare to level 29 daily.

 

[bardolph]

It may also be worth noting that Fire Storm is at its most effective when combined with control spells like Evard's Black Tentacles.

Remember, this game is not about Wizards versus Clerics. It's about Wizards and Clerics (and others) teaming up to defeat a common enemy.

 

[Goumindong]

Wasn't the problem with _all_ of them?

No

If you fail the basic power vs power comparison, you've already failed. If you fail the destiny vs destiny comparison, hey, you've failed. If you don't fail until you combine power and destiny? Well, guess you failed there too.

"because you say so" is not a valid justification. You need to actually have a reason that power vs power comparison is necessary rather than whether or no the system is balanced on a whole.

If the system is balanced on the whole, who cares if a few powers are out of line.

Umm. Sleep lets you CdG... that's it for wizard powers on last skim I did.

I was under the impression that stunned creatures did as well. Which is why the majority of stuns don't allow anyone to hit the creature.[When stunned you cannot take any actions, which is helpless.]

I am loving the 'Well, because wizards have archmage' or 'blood mage' stuff, though. That's going to make a ton of sense in two years when we have 400 paragon paths and 100 epic destinies.

Yes, anyone can choose to introduce unbalanced material. I am not sure what the point of saying "anyone can introduce unbalanced material if you let them" is.

Is archmage and blood mage imbalanced? Does it make the class imbalanced? No, on both accounts. Why? Because the end result doesn't end up imbalanced.

A class that gets the ability 'You deal 20 damage for every square you push someone with an at-will' and no at-wills that pushed could be declared balanced, but it isn't if you do a multiclass paragon path and start pushing people 8 squares with thunderwave.

Only if you could attain the combination power that made it broken. If you cannot then there is no problem. People do not complain that Bigby's crushing hand is overpowered because it grants combat advantage and attacks so with sneak attack its 2d10+5d8/round, because you can't sneak attack with Bigby's crushing hand and there is no way of attaining the power to do so.