D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

[KarinsDad]

Our level 3 party wiped the floor with the dragon in lost mines. It got off a breath weapon but died before it even got a second attack or movement.

So just don't look at numbers when describing expectations. It was one of the easiest fights we had. Yes we burned resources more because it WAS a dragon but smite, etc and it died.

If it got off to fly on its turn, etc it might have changed that. We were surprised because we said "we're dead" but 5e and damage can really make CR wrong based on circumstance

Did you fight the twig blights (or whatever they were called) before fighting the dragon?

A small village with multiple fights, and the dragon was oblivious to it all? The Passive Perception of the green dragon is something like 17. How the heck did your PCs get so close without alerting it?

Why didn't the dragon fight from the air where the PC's attacks are lessened? Why didn't the dragon's 40 hit point breath weapon kill some of the PCs?

Nearly 140 hit points in a single round by 3rd level PCs sounds extremely suspect. Maybe your DM lowered the hit points and breath weapon damage of the dragon, but I suspect that minimally, the DM did not run the dragon to its full perceptive, intellectual, and damage capacity. Lots of fights are easier if the DM does not run the NPCs to their potential or outright lowers the capabilities of the creature.

Not that I don't believe you, but I think your DM threw you a bone and you didn't fight the actual creature in the module. With 5 PCs, each 3rd level PC averaging 28 points of damage sounds really suspect, even if the Dragon lost initiative and the PCs all got two rounds of attacks off before the dragon got 2 off. The dragon has a high AC (18) and I find it unlikely that the PCs did 10 attacks against it and they all hit and that all of the attacked PCs saved against the breath weapon. For 3rd level PCs, the odds of 10 +5 vs. AC 18 attacks hitting are about 1/10,000 and the odds of say 3 PCs with +2 average to con saves all making their saves against DC 14 are 9%. Granted, a party wizard could be using magic missile and that would lower the odds to 6.5/10,000, but then again, the wizard would be doing below average damage and some other PC would have to pick up the slack.

Sorry. I don't buy that. Your DM fudged the encounter which is what I suspect that many experienced DMs did. Unlike the module designers, many experienced DMs are not stupid enough to put a near TPK into their games.

I would buy that a party of 3rd level PCs winning initiative could drive off the dragon when it got to half damage, but I don't buy that any group actually killed it without the DM fudging it. Having all of the PCs still conscious after the breath weapon alone should rarely occur.

 

[Retreater]

My party beat the Dragon but just barely. We had a large group of I think 8 characters with multiple healers. So that when the first wave was dropped with the breath weapon, the others came to their rescue. Then the dragon was very unlucky recharging his breath weapon.

 

[Gradine]

But mostly, I am assuming that a module designer would not be dumb enough to put a CR 16 foe into a module designed for 1st level PCs. Interestingly enough, the CR 14 Green Dragon in the lost mines of phandelver is expected to fight 3rd level PCs. So in one early 5E adventure, low level PCs are expected to fight a dragon and in another one, they are expected to not really fight a dragon.

Neither of these scenarios make sense, but come on. Make up their minds. Should low level PCs fight dragons, or not?

This right here is the problem. In neither of these scenarios is the party expected to fight the Dragon. One they're supposed to talk away, the other they're supposed to either avoid our join in a grand, desperate assault against (which is entirely their choice, at that point, at which point yes, the Dragon leaving is a tad convoluted).

The problem isn't that these creatures are put in the adventures. The problem is the assumption, by either the DM or the players, that creatures only exist in modules to be fought. This doesn't really make a ton of sense; are PCs only supposed to run into perfectly balanced encounters, always and forever? Or should they be expected to run into situations where their non combat abilities (stealth, subterfuge, discretion, our just sheer cleverness) are not just helpful but required?

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with the "There is a problem," "I hit it until it's not a problem anymore," style of gameplay. But these are the only players I can really imagine seeing the assault on Greenest as nothing but an insane suicide mission. And those guys are going to have issues with other parts of the adventure as well.

I'm not defending the full adventure by any stretch, I've so far only read the first part, and I can see it being very exhilarating, if not necessarily the way I would kick off a campaign. But at my table my players are expected to buy into the matter at hand. By explaining to them before character creation, in two simple sentences, that this campaign is heroic fantasy, and they are expected to play ultimately heroic (if still flawed) characters, they'll come to the table with all the buy-in they need. If they show up with a grizzled, bitter CN mercenary who turns their back on Greenest the instant they see the dragon, they've missed the point and I send them back to the drawing board. If that's the campaign the all want to play, then this adventure isn't for them and I've got to back to the drawing board. But neither one those in a knock on the adventure itself.

 

[Derren]

This right here is the problem. In neither of these scenarios is the party expected to fight the Dragon. One they're supposed to talk away, the other they're supposed to either avoid our join in a grand, desperate assault against (which is entirely their choice, at that point, at which point yes, the Dragon leaving is a tad convoluted).

The premade "You hate the dragon, kill it!" background suggests something different.

The problem isn't that these creatures are put in the adventures. The problem is the assumption, by either the DM or the players, that creatures only exist in modules to be fought. This doesn't really make a ton of sense; are PCs only supposed to run into perfectly balanced encounters, always and forever? Or should they be expected to run into situations where their non combat abilities (stealth, subterfuge, discretion, our just sheer cleverness) are not just helpful but required?

You are confusing something. The problem is that the adventure does not support staying clear of the dragon at all. The only way the adventure can work is when the PCs charge right into the town and it is only reasonable to assume that this leads to combat with the dragon which is currently actively hunting all defenders outside of the keep unless you metagame.
Smart play, meaning staying clear of the dragon, is not supported by the adventure.

 

[77IM]

My DM (my daughter)

Is her name Karin?

 

[Halivar]

The premade "You hate the dragon, kill it!" background suggests something different.



You are confusing something. The problem is that the adventure does not support staying clear of the dragon at all. The only way the adventure can work is when the PCs charge right into the town and it is only reasonable to assume that this leads to combat with the dragon which is currently actively hunting all defenders outside of the keep unless you metagame.
Smart play, meaning staying clear of the dragon, is not supported by the adventure.

We did not read the same adventure at all. By the time they got to Lennithon, kobolds had dropped everyone in the party at least once. They saw the dragon and knew I would kill them with it. Knowing, as stated in the adventure, that Lennithon is a reluctant participant in the raid and is unwilling to tangle with adventurers (it says that), I allowed the PC's to parlay with the dragon. The dragon will fly away if it takes 24 hit points, an obvious indication that it can be "persuaded" to leave. Prior to that, it will be no means be hunting the players on the ground.

 

[Nebulous]

Our level 3 party wiped the floor with the dragon in lost mines. It got off a breath weapon but died before it even got a second attack or movement.

So just don't look at numbers when describing expectations. It was one of the easiest fights we had. Yes we burned resources more because it WAS a dragon but smite, etc and it died.

If it got off to fly on its turn, etc it might have changed that. We were surprised because we said "we're dead" but 5e and damage can really make CR wrong based on circumstance

What? How did your party kill it in practically 1 round? How many PCs were there?

 

[sithramir]

We had 6 players. We have several paladins (several people wanted to try paladins and it became a "group" sent by a holy order to help).

We knew the dragon was there and did kill the twig blights earlier in the day. A druid had given us information on the location of the dragon so we did know it was where it was.

We had bless up and one of the characters used a fly potion we had found in that town (dragon born).

The paladins used vow of emnity to gain advantage on attacks and each smited so that was short burst damage that did use resources.

The dragonborn used his breath weapon.

The last hit was a crit with smite for 40 damage but we were each doing around 20-30.

The sorcerer cast a quickened scorching ray and a scorching ray and the hits did pretty good damage.

Three people took the breath weapon from the dragon and all 3 saved and 21 damage wasn't enough to slay anyone luckily.

The dragon would have taken it's second attack next and it WOULD have gotten ugly. The point, however, is that the damage we were able to do to it so quickly took him out. He did have 140 hps.

It used resources so it wasn't that it was just walking up and making quick work but using normal powers that could be used in any fight as needed took it out that quickly. Even all those hps wern't enough for 3rd level party. The next round someone probably would have died and maybe it would have gotten to fly and changed everything but then range and spells would still be able to hurt it.

The 18 AC was right because some scorching ray shots and one attack from someone missed. I kind of feel us hitting it with our heavy guns should count for something in this too BUT it's a dragon. When wouldn't you use your resources when fighting it. Was shocked we lived and it was CR 8.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The sorcerer cast a quickened scorching ray and a scorching ray and the hits did pretty good damage.

Not to nitpick, but you can't do that by the RAW. PHB, page 202. When you cast a spell as a bonus action, you cannot also cast a spell as your main action unless your main action spell is a cantrip.

 

[GameOgre]

Not to nitpick, but you can't do that by the RAW. PHB, page 202. When you cast a spell as a bonus action, you cannot also cast a spell as your main action unless your main action spell is a cantrip.

Holy cow is this true? Our Sorcerers have done this many a time. Geez! Looking in the book but I don't see that limit. Anyone have a page number for it?

Oops! Didn't see the page number Thanks!