D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

[Derren]

I don't know why you assume that because these 4 people are moving around town (likely dressed in basically the same clothes as the cultists, as in armour) it will seek them out. The only way I can see that happening is if the march up to the keep in plain sight yelling "I'm gonna get ya, you big blue beastie!"

Or dressed like the town guard the dragon is actively hunting. Also, most cultists are supported by kobolds, except the PCs.
Why do you assume that a highly intelligent blue dragon which is actively seeking out any resistence outside of the keep will not notice 4 or more heavily armed adventurers entering the town and attacking its allies?

 

[Mirtek]

Being shamed into fighting a half dragon that is going to clean a PC's clock 99% of the time

and if the PCs pull off the 1%, the adventure tells the DM to just replace the dead half-dragon with an equally strong replacement half-dragon in a later encounter, so that the PC's victory doesn't even matter (instead of having said later encounter being significantly easier as reward)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think that's a misconception. While AL was forced to adopt HotDQ it wasn't written to work with AL and they had to jump through hoops to make it (sort of) work.

Which just means that CR30 (even fully deserved CR30) is way too low to be a credible end of the world threat (lest alone for a full-fledged deity).

I still hope an eventuell MotP will provide some general deity powers (like in the 1e MotP) to retroactively buff up Tiamat (did wonders for 66hp-Lolth in 1e)

Bingo. Because CR is generally linear thanks to Bounded Accuracy, you cannot threaten the world with a CR 30 creature unless there are very, very few level 15+ characters in the world or the CR 30 creature has the mobility, intelligence, and inclination to defeat threats in detail. Since I don't interpret Tiamat as having the right personality to avoid combat, giving her mobility (2e-style Tanar'ri at-will Teleport Without Error) would probably not be enough to make her a real world-ending threat, but it would sure make her a lot more credible. Or you could just scale her up by a factor of about 50 in all dimensions: a mile long, 30,000 HP, 250 Legendary Resistances, breath weapons that reach for miles, and CR 1500. That would scare the pants off Szass Tam, Eliminster, and whole Harper/Zhentarim/Thayan complex.

Incidentally, Spelljammer's Stellar Dragons are awesome and I want to port one to 5E.

 

[Rhenny]

We had great fun with the 1 round single combat vs. Cyanwrath. It worked very well to make the story of our game more memorable. The Dwarf in our group (who can't speak common and we can't speak Dwarven) went up against the half-dragon. He drew first blood and was very proud. Then, when Cyanwrath attacked, his first hit injured the Dwarf badly, but we thought he'd be up for another round. Then Cyanwrath took a second attack and knocked the Dwarf down. It was cool.

The problem that some people have is that it seems scripted, but imagine being the player/PC. Even if there is little to no chance of taking the half-dragon down, the player/PC doesn't know that!!!! The effect achieved by the fight is what is important. The PC becomes a minor hero because he saved the innocent wife and kids, and there is built up animosity towards Cyanwrath and the cultists.

That's strong interactive story telling. Who cares if the outcome is nearly pre-determined. The PC/Player is roleplaying so win or lose is immaterial.

 

[KarinsDad]

Again, you're assuming the PCs are just blatantly walking up to the dragon. I agree that characters are extremely unlikely to just walk up to a dragon for a friendly chat, but when playing a heroic fantasy RPG most people will want to at least try and help the villagers in some way. I don't know why you assume that because these 4 people are moving around town (likely dressed in basically the same clothes as the cultists, as in armour) it will seek them out. The only way I can see that happening is if the march up to the keep in plain sight yelling "I'm gonna get ya, you big blue beastie!"

No. I am assuming that PCs would not just walk up to the dragon. I am assuming that in a real fight, the PCs a) will lose, and b) know that they will lose ahead of time.

I am assuming that the module designers would not put plot immunity into it. I am assuming that an evil dragon will actually go out of its way to kill anyone who attacks it (as opposed to the default of the keep encounter).

But mostly, I am assuming that a module designer would not be dumb enough to put a CR 16 foe into a module designed for 1st level PCs. Interestingly enough, the CR 14 Green Dragon in the lost mines of phandelver is expected to fight 3rd level PCs. So in one early 5E adventure, low level PCs are expected to fight a dragon and in another one, they are expected to not really fight a dragon.

Neither of these scenarios make sense, but come on. Make up their minds. Should low level PCs fight dragons, or not?

 

[KarinsDad]

and if the PCs pull off the 1%, the adventure tells the DM to just replace the dead half-dragon with an equally strong replacement half-dragon in a later encounter, so that the PC's victory doesn't even matter (instead of having said later encounter being significantly easier as reward)

This.

We actually "killed" (according to the normal rules) the half dragon in our game, but the DM allowed him to survive because his allies got to him in the next round and saved his life. If we would have known about the "just replace him with a dup" suggestion in the module, our players would have probably been a little bit annoyed. Really lame.

 

[KarinsDad]

The problem that some people have is that it seems scripted, but imagine being the player/PC. Even if there is little to no chance of taking the half-dragon down, the player/PC doesn't know that!!!!

This is not what bothered me about the encounter.

What bothered me is that the module designers thought it was a good idea to shame the players into the duel while at the same time knowing that the PC doing so would have virtually no chance of winning.

I like the PCs being heroes. Not being sacrificial punching bags with encounters designed to put them into a dirt nap. I get the whole "evil NPC blackmailing good PC into giving his life up for another NPC", but it just seems so heavy handed how it was done.


PS. I'm writing this while waiting for after Christmas dinner at my sister's house. My DM (my daughter) is sitting here next to me, reading what I write. She just said "Yeah, you do not know all of the crappy stuff in this module that I just had to edit out so that the group would not have to experience it. It needed some significant rework.". I just asked her if she did that for Hammerfast. She replied no. She made some slight modifications to Hammerfast, but they were not major plot mods. Hammerfast was neater, more tightly integrated with fewer jarring aspects to it, and a lot less linear. At least according to her.

 

[Retreater]

My response to the original question comes from a background of having been DMing HotDQ at Encounters at my FLGS for several months. We are in (I think) Chapter 7. And I apologize in advance for any spoilers.

First off, I'll reiterate the complaints about the imbalanced encounters and the difficulty with the dragon in Chapter 1, as well as the metagame cutscene fight with Cyanwrath. The player who faced Cyanwrath was a recent returning player to the hobby and he very nearly lost interest in the game. Cyanwrath's return fight in Chapter 3 was a TPK for both tables running it, and we allowed several "do-evers."

But my issues with HotDQ run deeper than encounter balance. Thankfully, I'm an experienced DM who can adjust encounters by increasing or decreasing the number of monsters or their abilities. In the example above, taking away Cyanwrath's breath weapon made the encounter merely difficult instead of nearly impossible.

The unforgivable failing of HotDQ, in my opinion, is its convoluted story arc. After (I think Chapter 3) the adventure gets very confusing and nonsensical. Trailing a caravan of cultists for months in game up and down the Sword Coast, through every major landmark in the region. Stopping at a Road House, which is a front for a secret tunnel, which leads to a swamp castle, which is a front for a teleportation circle, which leads to a hunting lodge, which is a front for a small town, which is a front for a castle .... It's all needlessly complex and anti-climactic. Important NPCs are brought up and cast aside at a moment's notice - never to return. No one's motivations are clear.

This is the main issue, and it's something that can't be excused by saying "oh, the authors didn't have the finalized rules." These are basic adventure design, basic storytelling rules that broken to the failure of the adventure path. This is worse than the imbalanced encounters. This is worse than the subpar maps. This is worse than the lack of proper awarding of treasure to keep the players motivated. All of those issues can be tinkered with ... but if the basic structure and plot of an adventure path doesn't make sense and information isn't relayed in a meaningful way, then the module doesn't do its job.

I'm not just arm-chair DMing this. I have written and published a better story arc than HotDQ. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/3440/The-Coils-of-Set?it=1 If I can do this, as an amateur DM who did this as a hobby project, I'd expect better from the great Kobold Press, WotC, and their flagship Tyranny of Dragons campaign story.

 

[sithramir]

No. I am assuming that PCs would not just walk up to the dragon. I am assuming that in a real fight, the PCs a) will lose, and b) know that they will lose ahead of time.

I am assuming that the module designers would not put plot immunity into it. I am assuming that an evil dragon will actually go out of its way to kill anyone who attacks it (as opposed to the default of the keep encounter).

But mostly, I am assuming that a module designer would not be dumb enough to put a CR 16 foe into a module designed for 1st level PCs. Interestingly enough, the CR 14 Green Dragon in the lost mines of phandelver is expected to fight 3rd level PCs. So in one early 5E adventure, low level PCs are expected to fight a dragon and in another one, they are expected to not really fight a dragon.

Neither of these scenarios make sense, but come on. Make up their minds. Should low level PCs fight dragons, or not?

Our level 3 party wiped the floor with the dragon in lost mines. It got off a breath weapon but died before it even got a second attack or movement.

So just don't look at numbers when describing expectations. It was one of the easiest fights we had. Yes we burned resources more because it WAS a dragon but smite, etc and it died.

If it got off to fly on its turn, etc it might have changed that. We were surprised because we said "we're dead" but 5e and damage can really make CR wrong based on circumstance

 

[Derren]

Our level 3 party wiped the floor with the dragon in lost mines. It got off a breath weapon but died before it even got a second attack or movement.

So just don't look at numbers when describing expectations. It was one of the easiest fights we had. Yes we burned resources more because it WAS a dragon but smite, etc and it died.

If it got off to fly on its turn, etc it might have changed that. We were surprised because we said "we're dead" but 5e and damage can really make CR wrong based on circumstance

A good example that the CR system in 5E is useless. It seems that as long as the PCs use their limited resources the combat will be easy no matter what.