Why is it so important?

[Mouseferatu]

The problem, TB, is this:

As a DM, I'm perfectly capable of balancing a day's worth of encounters around the fact that the low-level wizard has one or two useful spells.

But I don't want to, and my players don't want me to, because it feels terribly artificial. At low levels, dungeons only have one or two rooms? Or the goblin horde only launches one attack on the besieged city per day? Or the assassins wait 24 hours before a second attempt? Or the kidnapper's deadline has an extra day built into it to allow the party to rest? Or...

You see? When I'm playing D&D, be it as a player or a DM, the verisimilitude of the setting is one of the most important aspects to me. Without it, characters, plots, and adventures crumble. But the notion of a hero/adventurer who is only capable of meaningful action for about 18 second out of every day doesn't lend itself to that.

 

[Sun Knight]

I guess I have had very different gaming experience in 3.5 than James Wyatt because I see every combat encounter as a possibility of my character's demise and each one as exciting as the last. Also the whole going in the dungeon for 1 hour then rest 8 seems lame. In our group we would be in the dungeon for several hours, if not days at a time if it is a large complex, rest inside the dungeon every 12 to 16 hours. This who idea of adventuring "9:00 to 9:05" just does not happen in my group.

Our DM doesn't hold back either. If my wizard is out of spells then I am out of spells. I adapt my tactics and play as such. That is why Spells aren't the only thing my wizard can do.

 

[Treebore]

The problem, TB, is this:

As a DM, I'm perfectly capable of balancing a day's worth of encounters around the fact that the low-level wizard has one or two useful spells.

But I don't want to, and my players don't want me to, because it feels terribly artificial. At low levels, dungeons only have one or two rooms? Or the goblin horde only launches one attack on the besieged city per day? Or the assassins wait 24 hours before a second attempt? Or the kidnapper's deadline has an extra day built into it to allow the party to rest? Or...

You see? When I'm playing D&D, be it as a player or a DM, the verisimilitude of the setting is one of the most important aspects to me. Without it, characters, plots, and adventures crumble. But the notion of a hero/adventurer who is only capable of meaningful action for about 18 second out of every day doesn't lend itself to that.

So your saying because you ignore the limitations of the wizard versimilitude is ruined? Maybe if you accepted the limitations of the mage, rather than have your world ignore them, versimilitude would be achieved.

Sorry, I can't accept your unwillingness to adapt to the wizards, and clerics, etc... as a good reason to change the whole game. Versimilitude starts from the ground up, so if you refuse to like the foundation the rest of what you construct is always going to fail to please.

I guess since I have always accepted the limitations, and planned accordingly, and appreciated the challenge of those plans and choices, I have always had versimilitude in my games. If I wanted to change that I would go for a game like HARP, Rolemaster, etc... and gain my versimil.itude that way.

Then again, maybe the system they are developing for 4E will allow for a versatility in how magic is even done. So it may be modifiable to fit varying ideas of how magic works for various settings. Therefore allowing a wider range of "versimilitude" to be achieved.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So your saying because you ignore the limitations of the wizard versimilitude is ruined? Maybe if you accepted the limitations of the mage, rather than have your world ignore them, versimilitude would be achieved.

I'm saying that there's no reason for the villains and monsters of the world to build according to the wizards' weakness. If I'm a vampire designing my tomb, I'm not going to say "Gee, I better only have three rooms in this complex, or else an invading wizard might run out of spells." If I'm an evil cultist who's kidnapping sacrifices, I'm not going to postpone the ritual so the party of heroes chasing me can rest.

That's what I mean about verisimilitude.

And yes, I think that what I've heard about 4E--with some per day abilities, but others that aren't so limited--sounds like it'll fit a lot better with what I feel makes sense.

 

[Treebore]

I'm saying that there's no reason for the villains and monsters of the world to build according to the wizards' weakness. If I'm a vampire designing my tomb, I'm not going to say "Gee, I better only have three rooms in this complex, or else an invading wizard might run out of spells." If I'm an evil cultist who's kidnapping sacrifices, I'm not going to postpone the ritual so the party of heroes chasing me can rest.

That's what I mean about verisimilitude.

And yes, I think that what I've heard about 4E--with some per day abilities, but others that aren't so limited--sounds like it'll fit a lot better with what I feel makes sense.

Your right. I build the dungeon so it will hopefully take two or more days for the adventurers to get to me. That why I can run to a new hide out where they have to try and find me all over again. And the adventure continues.

Or, if I want the PC's to succeed I make sure the spellcasters have enough depth. They have plenty of potions, wands, scrolls, and other items to last through the dungeon marathon to get to the Vampire and stake it. Either way, versimilitude.

 

[hong]

Your right. I build the dungeon so it will hopefully take two or more days for the adventurers to get to me. That why I can run to a new hide out where they have to try and find me all over again. And the adventure continues.

Or, if I want the PC's to succeed I make sure the spellcasters have enough depth. They have plenty of potions, wands, scrolls, and other items to last through the dungeon marathon to get to the Vampire and stake it. Either way, versimilitude.

... or you could just get rid of the X/day abilities. Seems to save an awful lot of work.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I don't know. I can understand having a "little" more flexibility, but I'm concerned that this per encounter/at will/per day structure is "idiot proofing" PCs to the point to where what decision they may isn't that big a deal. Should you use mage blast or one of your spells? Eh, in the end, if you make the wrong choice, you have more choices, and you won't really be "wrong," you just may have to fight something for 8 rounds instead of three.

I worry about this as well, but wasen't original d&d idiot proof, well at least for fighters?

 

[Sun Knight]

One of the fun things about the game is to accumulate stuff, and using that stuff in the course of the adventure. It seems that you want to get rid of that aspect of the game, Hong. That aspect which is fun.

 

[hong]

One of the fun things about the game is to accumulate stuff, and using that stuff in the course of the adventure. It seems that you want to get rid of that aspect of the game, Hong. That aspect which is fun.

Mang, this post is so videogamey.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Your right. I build the dungeon so it will hopefully take two or more days for the adventurers to get to me. That why I can run to a new hide out where they have to try and find me all over again. And the adventure continues.

Or, if I want the PC's to succeed I make sure the spellcasters have enough depth. They have plenty of potions, wands, scrolls, and other items to last through the dungeon marathon to get to the Vampire and stake it. Either way, versimilitude.

And the evil cultists? The kidnappers? The dragon demanding tribute? The war that's about to break out between nations if the PCs don't locate the spy who's fomenting dissent?

My point is that any system that assumes the heroes have to stop after two minutes of combat is, by definition, more unrealistic* than it needs to be. (To say nothing of the fact that it's extremely limiting in the sorts of plots/stories/adventures that can be run.)

*(I'm actually referring to verisimilitude, not realism. But I can't think of a better word than "unrealistic.)

If every time something like this happens, the PCs take an extra six days to reach their objective but the villain still hasn't succeeded--or if the DM has to keep piling magic resources onto the PCs so they can accomplish the sorts of things that heroes in most fantasy fiction/myth do on their own--there's only so much weight the suspension of disbelief can stand before it crumbles.

Sure, I made it work in prior editions. Many good DMs did. That doesn't change the fact that it would've been better for the verisimilitude of the settings, the plots, and the villains if they didn't have to fudge the issue.