Remathilis
Legend
Because, they don't fight back.
I'll go now...
I'll go now...
Why is it so popular to kill innocent NPCs?
- Thread starter Tinker Gnome
- Start date
dreaded_beast
First Post
I've always wondered about this.
You get the high-level group of adventurers, say levels 14+, walking around a typical town.
If for some reason, they do break the law, commit a crime, murder someone; either through accident or by choice, how is their punishment enforced?
I'm in the camp, where I don't always happen to have a bunch of higher level NPCs that happen to be around to enforce the laws. In my opinion, this becomes unbelievable at higher levels.
When the party breaks the law in a town where the town militia is composed of 1st level fighters and the best combatant is 5th level fighter, how does that town enforce their laws upon the party?
I'm looking for something beyond the players actively submitting themselves to punishment, regardless of alignment. I am of the opinion that the threat of punishment has to be just that, threatening. What could these low-level commoners do as a punishment that would actually be considered threatening to a higher-level PC party?
You get the high-level group of adventurers, say levels 14+, walking around a typical town.
If for some reason, they do break the law, commit a crime, murder someone; either through accident or by choice, how is their punishment enforced?
I'm in the camp, where I don't always happen to have a bunch of higher level NPCs that happen to be around to enforce the laws. In my opinion, this becomes unbelievable at higher levels.
When the party breaks the law in a town where the town militia is composed of 1st level fighters and the best combatant is 5th level fighter, how does that town enforce their laws upon the party?
I'm looking for something beyond the players actively submitting themselves to punishment, regardless of alignment. I am of the opinion that the threat of punishment has to be just that, threatening. What could these low-level commoners do as a punishment that would actually be considered threatening to a higher-level PC party?
WayneLigon
Adventurer
They can't, really. After you get to a certain amount of personal power, it really is just impossible for the 'normals' to do anything to you, save by some genuinely imaginative trickery. Or poison.dreaded_beast said:
Now, this is talking about personal power. PC's generally have a lot of personal power, but often they have very little social or monentary power (compared to kings, dukes, etc). The NPC's can use those things to deal with the PC's. The local baron can appeal to the king, who hires four 16th-level rogue/assassins at an astronomical sum, or has his court wizard disintergrate someone from a distance as an object lesson.
It may smack of 'one-upsmanship' and the DM saying 'You don't matter; I can always beat you, nyaah nyaah', but.. it's not. There's always a bigger fish, and sooner or later you'll attract it's attention.
It depends on the power level of the world, and the importance of the PC's within it. A world where the PC's are movers and shakers but also know they are not the most powerful forces, the above might work if handled carefully.
Otherwise, you might want to speak to the players about the kind of tone you want to set for the campaign and see if they are cool with that.
dreaded_beast said:
Appeal to higher powers. It may not be immediate, but when the local lords start hearing about this gang of miscreants causing havoc, eventually action will be taken. And one figures that the rulers of whatever country they are in have powerful enough goons about to deal with them.
So, you probably don't see the PCs getting punished immediately by whatever villagers that they disturb. But if they make a habit out of it, they eventually get declared outlaw.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
I think it would say a great deal about the player who really does beleive such behavior is 'just human nature'.dinggle said:
It depends on the character, yes; some characters will do this, some will not. When you have a person who constantly does this across all characters, then it suggests something about the player.
Nightingale 7
First Post
Simply that town cannot deal with the group,and gets slaughtered to a man.The players get off scott free,but look at the bigger picture.That town should be under the purview of a king/duke/landlord/whatever and is tithing him regularly.When the tithes stop coming from that village the lord should want to check it out,through a Scrying from a royal magician,or a simple messenger.
They find the burned husk of the village,and the lord should be enraged.One does not come in your turf,trash your property and your subjects and get away with nothing.A Speak With Dead and a Scry spell later you can happily start sending high level Justicars,Assassins,or whatever appropriate high level "problem solvers" the lord keeps on retainer,and show to your stupidly-behaving players that they don't live in a vacuum,and that any act has consequences.Simple as that.
They find the burned husk of the village,and the lord should be enraged.One does not come in your turf,trash your property and your subjects and get away with nothing.A Speak With Dead and a Scry spell later you can happily start sending high level Justicars,Assassins,or whatever appropriate high level "problem solvers" the lord keeps on retainer,and show to your stupidly-behaving players that they don't live in a vacuum,and that any act has consequences.Simple as that.
First the players would get very little from the destruction of the villiage: lets say the party was at 15th level, and the villiage was full of 1-2 level commoners with some 2-4 level warriors guarding them. The players would get 0xp virtualy on money (maybe a few hundred silver) and no magical items, so from a purely meta-gaming point of view there is no reason to destoy the villiage.
Now in game this is how i would run it. Firstly PC's that have reached that level would have a sizable reputation, and as such their exploits would be rather well known and as such if they went around destorying villiages they would quikly gather a dark reputation. After a time they would find it rather difficult to move around the campaign world without being attacked by bounty hunters (who whould only grow more and more powerful as the PC's villiany spreads). Also their actions would attract the attention of... darker forces... who would begin to twist the PC's to their own ends. The more destruction the PC's caused the more numerous (and powerful) their enemies would become.
Other devices i could use are:
Ghosts: the spirits of the villiagers begin to haunt the PC's, slowly driving them mad.
Revenge: perhapse they kill the family of a powerful adventurer, or perhapse one of the villiagers survives and swears revenge, seaking out great power to destroy their hated foe.
Now in game this is how i would run it. Firstly PC's that have reached that level would have a sizable reputation, and as such their exploits would be rather well known and as such if they went around destorying villiages they would quikly gather a dark reputation. After a time they would find it rather difficult to move around the campaign world without being attacked by bounty hunters (who whould only grow more and more powerful as the PC's villiany spreads). Also their actions would attract the attention of... darker forces... who would begin to twist the PC's to their own ends. The more destruction the PC's caused the more numerous (and powerful) their enemies would become.
Other devices i could use are:
Ghosts: the spirits of the villiagers begin to haunt the PC's, slowly driving them mad.
Revenge: perhapse they kill the family of a powerful adventurer, or perhapse one of the villiagers survives and swears revenge, seaking out great power to destroy their hated foe.
Djeta Thernadier
First Post
Galeros said:
I don't really get it either. I think some people just like to kill things, and that's the fun of the game for them. My group doesn't kill NPCs unless they are CLEARLY a threat to the well being of us, and /or innocent people in the surrounding area. I even have a problem killing some monsters (had a real hard time bringing myself to kill a few baby owlbears but it had to be done).
To each their own, I guess.
Squire James
Explorer
Sometimes it's because every NPC who ever joins the party for an adventure has some dark motive that eventually proves life-threatening to the PC's. Some DM's use this tactic far too many times, and some players have simply developed the idea that "NPC joining party = Evil" and acted accordingly. Sometimes that leaks into other DM's games, and that is when it is the worst.
If the DM and players both have fun slaughtering villages, let them have their "fun". I personally want nothing to do with them.
If the DM is displeased with the players slaughtering villages, the first thing I would do is flat-out tell the players that they are not playing in a manner conducive to the continuation of the game. In other words, shape up or I'm gonna pick up my basketball and go home (or kick you all out if I'm already home). Sometimes, this actually works.
As a general rule, I play as "fair" as the PC's play. If they don't use insta-death spells, I don't use them except perhaps on NPC's to show off a BBEG's power. If they don't go around slaughtering innocent people 10 or more levels below them, I don't have groups 10 or more levels above them scry-buff-teleport in while most of them are sleeping. That sort of thing.
It doesn't even have to be "good guys" who do it, though sometimes having a Planetar or two around to enfoce the point is not a bad idea. Perhaps the Church of Violence had planned on using that village the PC's slaughtered for their own purposes, and they are VERY angry!
If the DM and players both have fun slaughtering villages, let them have their "fun". I personally want nothing to do with them.
If the DM is displeased with the players slaughtering villages, the first thing I would do is flat-out tell the players that they are not playing in a manner conducive to the continuation of the game. In other words, shape up or I'm gonna pick up my basketball and go home (or kick you all out if I'm already home). Sometimes, this actually works.
As a general rule, I play as "fair" as the PC's play. If they don't use insta-death spells, I don't use them except perhaps on NPC's to show off a BBEG's power. If they don't go around slaughtering innocent people 10 or more levels below them, I don't have groups 10 or more levels above them scry-buff-teleport in while most of them are sleeping. That sort of thing.
It doesn't even have to be "good guys" who do it, though sometimes having a Planetar or two around to enfoce the point is not a bad idea. Perhaps the Church of Violence had planned on using that village the PC's slaughtered for their own purposes, and they are VERY angry!
Amal Shukup
First Post
My players have NEVER killed an 'innocent' NPC. One of the PCs has occasionally killed captured enemies - but as he's a CN Barbarian with no respect for or ties to civilized justice institutions, I saw his actions as fairly in character. They were also very, very bad people (slave trading gang members)...
I do know that I would not tolerate it if my party got their jollies whackin' innocent bystanders. Mechanism of reprisal is fairly straightforward: Everybody is connected to somebody:
A'Mal
I do know that I would not tolerate it if my party got their jollies whackin' innocent bystanders. Mechanism of reprisal is fairly straightforward: Everybody is connected to somebody:
* a harmless merchant slain for fun and profit might pay regular protection money to a Thieves Guild - which might take exception to their pigeon getting dead instead of plucked. Bad for business...
* Slaughtered city guardsmen may have posed no challenge. BUT they worked for the City Council (which has wealth and resources) and the city is chartered from the local Count/Duke/Prince...
* The murdered bystander is the son of old Biff the chandler, who is dearly loved by his weird uncle Harold - the elderly but very powerful 18th level Wizard...
* Or, as a certain group of bad guys in my campaign found out: the easily captured and enslaved 1st level Commoner barmaid worked for a bar owned by an adventuring party with the ability and will to track down and destroy everyone involved...
* Slaughtered city guardsmen may have posed no challenge. BUT they worked for the City Council (which has wealth and resources) and the city is chartered from the local Count/Duke/Prince...
* The murdered bystander is the son of old Biff the chandler, who is dearly loved by his weird uncle Harold - the elderly but very powerful 18th level Wizard...
* Or, as a certain group of bad guys in my campaign found out: the easily captured and enslaved 1st level Commoner barmaid worked for a bar owned by an adventuring party with the ability and will to track down and destroy everyone involved...
A'Mal
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