D&D 5E Why is level 5-10 the "sweet spot" in D&D

[Tony Vargas]

Sorcerer: I will teleport everyone to the consecrated grounds!
Wizard: Don't bother. I will open a portal to the elemental plane of fire and we'll toss the body in there. Have fun regenerating vampire lord!
Cleric: guys guys come on now, let's do this right. I'll consecrate the grounds behind the inn, we'll bury him there, and then the sorcerer can teleport us back to our beach-side mansion!
Barbarian: ... I guess I can cook BBQ once we are there?

Is this still a thing in 5e?

No. Barbarians can't cook.

J/K - I'm sure BBQ fits under the Survival skill.

 

[Gadget]

[MENTION=23716]Gadget[/MENTION]:

but the "big boom" spells are not the problem. It's the "problem solving" spells that greatly enhances a party's capacity for transportation, information gathering, obstacle bypassing etc...

By "big boom" I meant the potentially game breaking spells, not mere damage, sorry that was unclear. There are still those spells, depending on how one would categorize them. But keep in mind that in your Vampire case, both Plane Shift and Teleport are 7th level spells. You only get one of those a day. And you have to be a, what 13th or 14th level caster to get them. So you are paying a significant opportunity cost to cast them. Of course they could just cast Demiplane and toss the body of in the newly created place and forget about it. As long as you don't go to that specific Demiplane again, the new Vampire Lord is trapped there. But that is an 8th level spell. Forcecage the body in a sunlit meadow, use Wish to extend the spell duration for a long time (DM dependent, and not very resource efficient), problem solved. Disintegrate the body, even burn the body and mix the ashes with holy water? DM dependent. These issues remain, to a lesser degree than previous editions.

But lets suppose that there was some opposing force that was preventing the party from obtaining the body. Does the caster enter the fray, purposefully holding back his one 7th level slot to use later, even if things are desperate? Obviously, this decision becomes easier if the caster has 8th and 9th level slots, or if there are more than one caster capable of casting 7th + level spells.

I think the question I was trying to get at before was, do they need to use that 7th+ level slot, or can they get by with not using it to win the fight by relying lower level slots + cantrips. Obviously, other party member contributions will be a major factor, but I think the design intent with no auto scaling damage and effects (you have to use a higher level slot to get more effects in addition to things like concentration), it might be feasible to force this kind of hard choice on a caster. I'm not sure they succeeded though, if that indeed was the intent.

 

[S'mon]

Just a comment that my 5E experience so far shows the sweet spot idea doesn't work so well for this edition....I used to define levels 5-10 as the sweet spot in 3.5/PF but in 5E I've run games up to level 16 that felt smooth and enjoyable in the same way, so 5E seems to have fixed this issue (for me).

Yeah. I've not heard anyone say that 5e becomes un-fun or un-playable after 10th (etc) level. From what I've seen with my campaign up to 13/14 currently, casters tend to become very powerful (rather than stay equal to non-casters as in 4e) but not dominate as is in 3e/PF, the non-casters still contribute very effectively. Our Cleric hangs back and wields his mighty magics while the barbarians protect
him, lead the assault, slay dozens of foes and soak up enormous amounts of damage.

 

[S'mon]

Also, many (though certainly not all) high level campaigns tend to be EPIC PLOT driven, with big showdowns the emphasis, rather than grinding out 6-8 encounters a day. This could be a factor as well.

Yes. What I did recently in my high level game was run a massive ship battle (skeletons vs barbarians) over two sessions as a series of encounters; it all happened within about 15-20 minutes of game
time. It felt really epic but the classes were a lot more balanced than if all I'd run was the fight with the Necromancer commanding the skeleton fleet.

 

[S'mon]

[MENTION=23716]Gadget[/MENTION]:

but the "big boom" spells are not the problem. It's the "problem solving" spells that greatly enhances a party's capacity for transportation, information gathering, obstacle bypassing etc...

I mean let's say you are in an inn of a cursed town, and with you is the body of some damned sod who will rise as a terrible vampire lord once the sun goes down. The only solution is burying him on consecrated grounds. You have to carry the body through the town which is filled with - I don't know, ghouls, goblins, foes basically; furthermore you only have a few hours before sunset. This could be a cool part of an adventure right? Not at high level though...

Well, yeah. The GM shouldn't design low level adventures and expect high level PCs to have to follow his pre-chosen path.
Personally I like the resources of high level 5e characters, it's especially good for my sandbox game - the PCs & players decide what to do, what problems to solve, and come up with interesting and impressive magical effects. But there is nothing like 3e style caster dominance.

 

[Ancalagon]

I hadn't realized how limited level 6-9 slots were limited (and now I understand the warlock upper level spells design a bit better). That plus concentration rules should help limit somewhat the "swiss army knife" effect with a spell to bypass any situation... That *could* extend the sweet spot a bit beyond level 9

 

[The Human Target]

You have enough power and options to be cool, not enough to slow the game or introduce stuff that breaks standard storytelling.

Also, at those levels you can fight the widest range of classic monsters.

 

[Ancalagon]

I wonder sometimes if part of the challenge is the "change of gears" that has to occur between mid and high levels. Maybe it's better to start a high level campaign, or have a break so the GM can re-focus and re-orient?

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

So again, the next time you wonder why so many people love tier 2, just try and think about the last time you saw or read a fantasy story that involved level 15+ style magic and abilities. Odds are good it was either a superhero comic or the story focused on a "chosen one" type character who is truly unique in power (certainly not a group of 5 such characters).

Where would you say the powerful Wheel of Time characters fall? They have stuff like teleportation (Gateways/Traveling) and balefire is something like a super-disintegrate...

And then there's stuff like "Gardens of the Moon" which starts with an army of mages fighting a super-wizard in a floating fortress...

 

[Ancalagon]

Where would you say the powerful Wheel of Time characters fall? They have stuff like teleportation (Gateways/Traveling) and balefire is something like a super-disintegrate...

And then there's stuff like "Gardens of the Moon" which starts with an army of mages fighting a super-wizard in a floating fortress...

By Super wizard, you mean Anomander Rake, who essentially has the power of a demi-god *and* is a dark elf AND a "were-dragon".

I love Anomander Rake. He is wise and compassionate yet willing to take hard decisions. Even better, while Drizzt launched hundreds of me-too clones, Rake has not since he is so ludicrously powerful that no DM would ever allow it. Perfect

That series is fascinating because it managed to make low level fighters struggling in the trenches be as interesting as the high muckymucks like Anomander