Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?

[Chaltab]

I've noticed that for all (or most) of the heritages in a5e with a flying speed, there's a limitation of 3 rounds at a time without gaining temporary fatigue. Some of them can take a Paragon feature that allows them to save against Fatigue, but it's still a risk.

Aside from the obvious disparity that non-magical flying doesn't have this limitation, this is a huge nerf from the O5E versions of equivalent ancestries. It also leads to things feeling incredibly underwhelming from a story perspective. Literal bird-people can only fly for 18 seconds at a time until they're one of the most powerful bird-people in the realm at level 10, and even then have to expend a lot of effort to stay airborne.

Did flight really cause such great balance issues when playtesting A5E heritages that this nerf is neccesary, or do you think it would be okay to ease the restriction somewhat?

 

[Morrus]

I'm not convinced that flying for 'only' 3 rounds straight in an encounter is much of a nerf. Have there been many encounters where flying for 4 rounds would have made that vital difference?

Long distance flight is main thing, and the way it interacts with journeys and exploration challenges.

 

[xiphumor]

I've noticed that for all (or most) of the heritages in a5e with a flying speed, there's a limitation of 3 rounds at a time without gaining temporary fatigue. Some of them can take a Paragon feature that allows them to save against Fatigue, but it's still a risk.

Aside from the obvious disparity that non-magical flying doesn't have this limitation, this is a huge nerf from the O5E versions of equivalent ancestries. It also leads to things feeling incredibly underwhelming from a story perspective. Literal bird-people can only fly for 18 seconds at a time until they're one of the most powerful bird-people in the realm at level 10, and even then have to expend a lot of effort to stay airborne.

Did flight really cause such great balance issues when playtesting A5E heritages that this nerf is neccesary, or do you think it would be okay to ease the restriction somewhat?

Here’s the thing: flying = immunity to melee damage, and a lot of monsters don’t have a way to deal ranged damage. If you can fly without restriction, you win just about any outdoor combat so long as you’re proficient with a longbow and aren’t in a rush.

 

[Chaltab]

Here’s the thing: flying = immunity to melee damage, and a lot of monsters don’t have a way to deal ranged damage. If you can fly without restriction, you win just about any outdoor combat so long as you’re proficient with a longbow and aren’t in a rush.

Only if the enemies have no way of flying either. I just don't see it happening that often--encounters outdoors and no enemies with flight or ranged weapons/spells. Not unless your narrator is very lenient.

My main concern going in would be how, out of combat it makes the party more reliant on spellcasters or magic items in any scenario where flying would be useful, which is generally speaking one of the biggest problems I've encountered in O5E. I know A5E does a lot to address that, so this one issue just seemed odd.

 

[James Gasik]

Here’s the thing: flying = immunity to melee damage, and a lot of monsters don’t have a way to deal ranged damage. If you can fly without restriction, you win just about any outdoor combat so long as you’re proficient with a longbow and aren’t in a rush.

I've seen Monks and even Rogues accomplish the same feat without flying though, and usually less hoops needed to jump through. In my experience, it mostly comes down to a failure to take flight into consideration- an adventure requires you to climb a cliff, or traverse a forest with bandits hidden in trees, or traverse a murky swamp, or any number of similar scenarios that might be easier for someone capable of flight.

That and three-dimensional combat has always been a nightmare in D&D, lol. Any time a player has an ability that lets them ignore a classic D&D scenario, it's seen as problematic, even if there are still many ways to challenge that player. I watched a DM explode when we played Eberron the first time, simply because things like drowning, poison, needing food and water, or fatigue were irrelevant to the party's Warforged- never mind disadvantages like a different paradigm for healing damage, being vulnerable to several Druid spells, or even unbalanced racial modifiers.

Flight isn't instantly broken, but it is something you need to take into account in certain campaigns or scenarios. It's no different than deciding to run an underwater adventure and then someone plays a Triton. Or you have a great cold-themed adventure in the frozen north, and a player has resistance to cold. The things you want to use as challenges for the rest of the party are going to hit a lot differently for that player.

 

[noodohs]

People are weirdly opposed to flight in D&D generally, I find, but only when players can do it. Monsters are fine, but when players get to have the same boon, suddenly the world is ending. It certainly can trivialize many things, but as others have said, only if the GM fails to take it into account. Heck, in one game I'm in, the character with flight has been the first and only player death so far. They are still plenty easy to hit with ranged attacks and spells and players who have flight are often arrogant about it and charge recklessly into danger thinking they are immune to harm.

Unfortunately, I don't make the rules, but I suspect the lingering hangups remain for a lot of designers.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Unfortunately, I don't make the rules

unless you're the narrator. in which case you can make mac and cheese, AND NOBODY CAN STOP--

 

[Distracted DM]

Quick answer regarding PCs with full-time flight:

Flying enemies are a tool in the GM toolbox, a complication for PCs to figure out.
Flying PCs are "easy outs" and remove a lot of usable fantasy tropes and challenges for the GM, who doesn't need a harder time making things interesting for the players.

I know there are many reasons that one or more flying PCs aren't a problem- but these are the off the top of my head reasons that they are.

 

[lichmaster]

Did flight really cause such great balance issues when playtesting A5E heritages that this nerf is neccesary, or do you think it would be okay to ease the restriction somewhat?

Many things were nerfed or simplified from previous editions to make the game easier to run (especially for newer DMs but for veterans too).

Flight is one obvious choice, also because it made most exploration challenges and random encounters pointless or trivial. It's a very important aspect of campaign, adventure and setting design too, as travelling (both long and short distance) is one of the most fundamental aspects of life.

From a constructive POV this means that there's quite the opportunity for creative and talented designers to come up with exploration challenges for groups of flying PCs.

Combat encounters don't really need any creative effort, just people to remember that thrown/ranged weapons are a thing, and that melee only enemies are probably going to take cover and run away when clearly outmatched or outmaneuvered.

[Side note: another thing I realized (currently re-reading 2e material) is that enemy morale is not mentioned or considered anymore, since 3rd edition. By reading the core rules of newer editions one has the impression that combat has to last 3 rounds because all opponents die within that timeframe. This has a slew of consequences, from how much damage per round is expected on both sides, to how healing works, etc, including the fact that most combats are to the death. Running for one's life should be always a main concern for pretty much all sentient beings. LU does give some better indications regarding this but I'm not sure it's emphasized enough]

Another aspect that has been severely nerfed and I'm still not sure I'm happy with is magic, concentration spells in particular. One can now only maintain concentration one one spell at a time, so making awesome spell combos is a no go. Sure this can trivialize some aspects of the game, but it's also the bread and butter of high fantasy settings.
I remember in 2e's Forgotten Realms there was a group of patrols (around Evermeet IIRC) that was made of mid level elven fighter/mages. They did cast invisibility and flight at the beginning of the day and could go around for hours patrolling undetected from most enemies. Man I miss this kind of crazy stuff in today's designs!

 

[xiphumor]

Flight isn't instantly broken, but it is something you need to take into account in certain campaigns or scenarios. It's no different than deciding to run an underwater adventure and then someone plays a Triton. Or you have a great cold-themed adventure in the frozen north, and a player has resistance to cold. The things you want to use as challenges for the rest of the party are going to hit a lot differently for that player.

An important point that I realized from having this conversation a few days ago is that it’s a very different conversation depending on if you’re speaking as a Narrator or as a designer. A Narrator can make adjustments to their particular table and game and usually challenge flying PCs without too much trouble if they want, but a designer has to consider all possible games and sessions (at least in the abstract), including those with inexperienced Narrators.

Another aspect that has been severely nerfed and I'm still not sure I'm happy with is magic, concentration spells in particular. One can now only maintain concentration one one spell at a time, so making awesome spell combos is a no go. Sure this can trivialize some aspects of the game, but it's also the bread and butter of high fantasy settings.
I remember in 2e's Forgotten Realms there was a group of patrols (around Evermeet IIRC) that was made of mid level elven fighter/mages. They did cast invisibility and flight at the beginning of the day and could go around for hours patrolling undetected from most enemies. Man I miss this kind of crazy stuff in today's designs!

You can have all of the crazy spell combos you want; you just need multiple casters, which I think encourages teamwork and benefits the game.