Why Is the Cleric Unfun?

[Hussar]

Firelance - stop saying things I agree with.

 

[Driddle]

I've noticed several comments about the weakness of clerics in AD&D, and I really didn't see it - but then, we were always cautious about our progress, and never went more in an in-game day than we felt we could handle ...

(agreement nod) That pretty much says it all.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I've never lost against any hard encounters.

If a situation is more difficult than you have resources to tackle immediately, you back off and replan or restock or reroute around it. That's a core assumption of the roleplaying gaming experiences I've been in: creative solutions, no matter how tough the challenge. You don't lose, per se, you just work through it. ... Kinda like life. After all, it's not as though we're playing a scripted computer game with only one way to force a "win."

What? Sorry. What is the solution to "the enemy did enough damage to drop me unconscious when they pounced and did a full attack in this cave with only one way out and the enemies move faster than everyone in the party."?

That's a fairly average encounter for us. The answer is unless the cleric heals the fighter this round and brings him up, we'll either end up with at least one more dead party member or the wizards and clerics teleport out while everyone else runs like mad.

There really aren't all that many viable solutions to most encounters other than "be able to take the damage, heal the damage, and do the damage."

The only solution is that your DM uses less powerful enemies on you who won't be able to do that to you. Or specifically sets up ways for you to escape or objects in the room to come up with an interesting plan with. And all of those still require enemies who don't drop you in 1 or 2 rounds due to pure damage. Either that or a DM willing to cheat to make it easier for you.

 

[Driddle]

I'm sorry, but, I don't believe this. You've NEVER lost against a hard encounter. And you absolutely trust that your DM didn't fudge? I'm calling shenanigans. I've run more than enough 3e combat to know how lethal it is. If you're facing EL+ encounters regularly and never dying, someone's playing silly buggers with the numbers.

Driddle, how you account for encounters where monsters can kill PC's in a single round? It's all very good to say "play smart" but, that means you have to "play smart" in every single encounter. If you lack a healer, how do you do combat past about 10th level?

The only solution is that your DM uses less powerful enemies on you who won't be able to do that to you. Or specifically sets up ways for you to escape or objects in the room to come up with an interesting plan with. And all of those still require enemies who don't drop you in 1 or 2 rounds due to pure damage. Either that or a DM willing to cheat to make it easier for you.

Wow. I didn't realize that's what the DM must be doing. Thanks for opening my eyes.
And to think I used to imagine we were intelligent and played well together ...

Suddenly the game is much less fun. I might as well go play WoW where the terms "win" and "lose" are so much more clearly defined and we don't have to worry about the program code "cheating" on our behalf.

Dang it.

 

[Counterspin]

Driddle, while I understand your hostility to Majoru, could you please respond to what I think is a good point, which is that a great many monsters are faster than the 20ft movement that constrains at least one member of most parties, and many are faster than 30 ft?

Additionally, please stop drawing WoW into it. It's an annoying and pointless line of argumentation.

 

[Odhanan]

To answer the OP, the Cleric is perceived as "unfun" because he is a support character with a passive role within the group: healing people, buffing them. He doesn't "do" the stuff at his best: he helps others do it better.

Just like the Armiger of IH, the Cleric isn't a class everyone's going to like, but for some players it's going to be the paramount of fun.

 

[Driddle]

I understand your hostility to Majoru ...

Thank you.
But it's not hostility. Just sarcasm.

Additionally, please stop drawing WoW into it. It's an annoying and pointless line of argumentation.

Only if you miss the point.

 

[Counterspin]

Driddle, could I convince you to respond to the question, rather than ignoring it to respond to petty minutia? Because I'm actually interested in your answer.

 

[Driddle]

... a great many monsters are faster than the 20ft movement that constrains at least one member of most parties, and many are faster than 30 ft?

And a great many aren't.
(shrug)

Good grief, what kind of DMs have some of you been playing against?! I can't remember the last time the DM tried to beat us into submission with a scenario we couldn't overcome or otherwise work around ... clerically or otherwise. And even when things are tough and we're getting slapped silly, it's still not a matter or "win" or "lose."

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Good grief, what kind of DMs have some of you been playing against?! I can't remember the last time the DM tried to beat us into submission with a scenario we couldn't overcome or otherwise work around ... clerically or otherwise. And even when things are tough and we're getting slapped silly, it's still not a matter or "win" or "lose."

It's always a matter of win or lose. And that's most of the fun. A DM has never TRIED to beat us into submission They've simply used appropriate monsters in an attempt to make the game challenging and put a question into everyone's mind if they would survive and succeed on their mission.

They use monsters against us, our goal is to beat them and get past using the abilities we have. This has always been the point of D&D since I started playing. We are assigned a mission to accomplish which normally has a time limit of some sort. We then have to beat a bunch of monsters, solve a bunch of puzzles, role play with a bunch of NPCs and come up with a bunch of ideas to reach the goal. Each one is a test of skill on our part.

The combat encounters are a test of our ability to use our powers effectively and work together as a team to get past them. Can the rogue properly move into sneak attack position? Can someone in the group make a knowledge check to identify the weakness or can the party find the weakness of the creature before it's too late and the enemies kill you? Does the wizard and the cleric use their spells in the most effective fashion? Did the barbarian take the first hit or was the party not watching their backs and the enemy sneaks up behind and kills the wizard?

If we knew that if we made the wrong decision we could just back up and try again, all the tension would be gone since it didn't matter what we did, we could just try again. We thrive and enjoy the pressure that situations like "You need to kill the enemy within the next two rounds or we're all dead" creates.

But because of that, some people don't like playing a cleric, as in those situations we need a curing spell every round, and that's their entire job.