D&D 4E Why is this board so down on 4E critics?

[LightPhoenix]

FIFY is fine... in places where it is accepted practice.

I don't think ENWorld is one of those places, and can certainly see how it would be considered rude and "putting words in people's mouths" in places where it has not achieved joke status.

FIFY is fine, when it's (usually obviously) being used as a joke. Where it's not fine is a) putting words in other peoples' mouths, and b) using it passive-aggressively.

 

[Dinkeldog]

FIFY

Poor, poor, hong.

 

[PaulofCthulhu]

Fourth edition Dungeons & Dragons isn't heading in a way that I personally like (to be honest my favourites remain 1st ed. AD&D & prior - and whatever it is, is pretty much set in stone by now), but critiques can still be discussed in a civilised manner.

Internet forums can be a bit wild West, and moderation is often more of an art than a science, often a difficult one at that. So I can sympathise with mods. & admins. I've been doing it for 12 years. It's all done on volunteer time and goodwill.

By way of increasing civil behaviour it seems to go:

Internet forums - anonymity
Email - less anonymity
Phone - I'm communicating with a real person
In person - They might hit me, etc.

The first two also remove voice inflection and body language and the first three - voice inflection, so lots of room for mis-understandings to boot. Ho hum.

The point to this meander: From experience, if one keeps one's arguments/point of view civil and doesn't use pejorative language I would imagine that you're less likely to end up on any ban list, possibly.

As for how D&D players are portrayed to the general public, I believe that Mark Barrowcliffe's book The Elfish Gene is going to raise some hackles when it's published in the US as it already has in the UK.

 

[jdrakeh]

. . . but critiques can still be discussed in a civilised manner.

That's the ticket. ENWorld isn't down on people who dislike 4e. It's down on posters who show up, post deliberately inflammatory stuff about how WotC reps are all liars, cheats, and thieves and asserts that anybody who supports them or has an interest in 4e is some kind of brain-damaged moron. And then screams about ENWorld being unfair when other posters rightfully call them out for their deliberate trolling.

In short, people can dislike 4e and talk about it (or any game) at ENworld just fine -- it's the deliberate starting of numerous hate-based threads specifically designed to provoke flamewars by virtue of parroting intentionally offensive characterizations of people with opposing view points that will get folks in trouble. And, in fairness, this should get folks in trouble at any message board with moderators who actually do their jobs.

The whole "I posted a lot of deliberately offensive threads in an attempt to bait posters into flamewars and then got banned for it!" whine won't win anybody sympathy at web forums worth visiting. If you try to start a lot of flamewars, you deserve to get banned, suspended, or otherwise disciplined. This goes for me and everybody else.

If somebody doesn't like getting punished for acting like an asshat, the answer isn't for them to demand that the world at large change its views on what constitutes acceptable behavior -- the answer is to stop acting like an asshat.

 

[Henry]

In short, people can dislike 4e and talk about it (or any game) at ENworld just fine --

Heck, I'm living proof of that.

 

[steelcaress]

I think those people who just troll and threadcrap are not particularly doing anyone any kind of service. But there are some who are, while misguided, might being trying to point out something. Benjamin Franklin used to cross the street to argue with a man, and eventually found out that maybe the other guy had a point worth supporting, too. Mark Hughes has yet to learn that, I guess.

Me, I've been pretty much anti-D&D since 2nd Edition. They've got all sorts of game mechanics I'd love to change, but everyone would be angry if they did. So it's not going to happen. As I once lived in the Pacific Northwest, I took regular trips to WotC as an industry man and saw it change and grow and warp into something I distinctly disliked with the unveiling of Magic: The Blathering, and then Hasbro (who has business practices I don't like, in addition to Owning Everything) bought it and the bottom dropped out.

But, in a nutshell, is anyone wrong for liking D&D? No.

Am I wrong for disliking it? No. I'm tired of D20 and how everyone thought it could be a generic system and could do everything well, when it really only did one thing well: D&D. When I was a lad, Basic, Expert, Companion, and Master seemed to be the coolest iterations of D&D ever. I liked 'em better than the rather dry 1st Edition Advanced. But, I grew up. I keep looking for the one version of D&D they finally got right. Doesn't look like they've hit it after 34 years, either. As a fan of comic books and fantasy I like games that seem to do a good job of emulating the genre. I prefer more modern stuff, and Risus fits the bill as far as "can emulate anything."

But if you guys like it, more power to ya. The only reason I have any interest in D&D at all is to see how it changes and grows.

 

[Mark]

Four and a half years until you make your first post and you plug Risus?

 

[Morrus]

But, in a nutshell, is anyone wrong for liking D&D? No.

But if you guys like it, more power to ya. The only reason I have any interest in D&D at all is to see how it changes and grows.

See, that summarizes what we value in a post. Anyone is welcome to state their likes and dislikes; as long as they accept that others have that same right.

Anyone who accuses us of "coming down" on anti-4E posts is being disingenuous. What you mean is "They came down on ME (or someone who agrees with me), and one of my characteristics is that I don't like 4E, therefore I conclude that they come down on anti-4E posts."

But, and I have to be honest here, I can think of only two possibilities here:

(a) people aren't self-aware enough to realise that it's their tone that's in question, in which case a 3-day ban may make the point; if it doesn't, we aren't interested in "changing" them, we'll just ask them to leave; or

(b) people are aware it's their tone, and not their opinion which causes the moderator action, and do it anyway - in which case we're happy to say goodbye. The obligatory threads on ther boards which condemn us for all manner of crimes don't really bother us; we find 'em amusing.

In short: one's opinion is valid; a long as one accepts that others are, too, even if they dare to have the temerity to hold a different opinion to your own.

 

[jdrakeh]

Incidentally, I've noticed that, while the 4e forum still contains numerous posts by those individuals who are enthused about 4e and those who aren't, there seems to be a noticeable downturn in the number of deliberately insulting or hostile posts that largely defined the same forum last Fall and earlier this year. That rocks.

 

[Jdvn1]

I actually met a lurker today who mentioned to me that a lot of the threads recently have turned into 4e flame wars--but, he didn't specify a pro or anti 4e bias overall.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with him, but some people are certainly getting some bad vibes.