Why is/was melee training so bad?

[twilsemail]

So I’m missing something somewhere and I’m not sure why.

With the change prefaced in today’s Essentials preview everyone is talking about how much Melee Training needed a hit from the Nerf-Bat. I’m not at all sure why this is, and I don’t recall hearing this before today. I honestly thought the opposite was true. I figured that Weapon or Melee based classes deserved a MBA based on their primary stat even without a feat.

Well, ENWorlders, why do you think that Melee Training was too strong?

Here’s the situation. Gren, a Battlemind, can swing his hammer all day long, accurately and painfully, as long as it's on his turn. Half a second later, a goblin walks away from him and Gren as forgotten which end he’s supposed to hit with. Why does that make sense to most people? Why was it necessary to make a weapon based character worse at swinging his weapon?

This is a genuine question. What is it that feels wrong about viable MBAs fro non-Strength classes? Especially when those classes are Melee or Weapon based?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Melée Training was broken in conjunction with the Knight and Slayer Essentials fighter subclasses.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It allowed me to work off an effective five stat spread rather than a six stat spread with very minimal penalties. I've currently got a Dex 20, Str 8 monk with Melee Training. An MBA equal to a strength 20 warlord with a longsword. It was just too much. (On the other hand I'd love a Psionic Power MBA At Will for the monk).

 

[twilsemail]

It allowed me to work off an effective five stat spread rather than a six stat spread with very minimal penalties. I've currently got a Dex 20, Str 8 monk with Melee Training. An MBA equal to a strength 20 warlord with a longsword. It was just too much. (On the other hand I'd love a Psionic Power MBA At Will for the monk).

And you can't dump stat Cha or Int for a Fighter?

 

[Neurotrash]

As was already said, it really only became broken with the release of the new MBA-based classes in Essentials.

Using the Slayer as an example, for the price of one feat (melee training) you could make a Slayer with a 20 Dex. This gives you a melee basic attack that does [W] + 10 damage every time you hit (and all your attacks are MBAs), and with hide armor you're walking around with a 18 AC at first level, in addition to the Slayer's defender-level hp.

With the new fix to the feat, that falls to a [W] + 7, which is a little closer to other first level Strikers in damage output. Without the feat, with 18 Str 18 Dex you can get [W] + 8 damage, and a 17 AC in Hide (the same as if you were just wearing the Scale you're already proficient in).

Taking Melee training isn't a bad choice, but now it's not a "you're stupid if your Slayer doesn't take it at first level" choice.

 

[Klaus]

And you can't dump stat Cha or Int for a Fighter?

No, the point is that the knight and slayer got benefits from two stats (Str for Melee Basic Attacks and Con or Dex for additional benefits). Through Melee Training these classes could get all benefits from a single stat.

A slayer could focus on Dex and get high AC, high attacks and lots of damage on melee and ranged from Dex alone. Without the need to invest in Strength, the slayer could put a few points in Con for extra hp and better Fort.

 

[Stalker0]

Here’s the situation. Gren, a Battlemind, can swing his hammer all day long, accurately and painfully, as long as it's on his turn.

Gren, a battlemind, is a fighter known for his methodical unrelenting swings (con attack). Once in the rhythm, he can pound through any defense.

However, his weakness is adaptation. An enemy moving away disrupts the rhythm, and the attack is weaker.


In other words, flavor can explain anything.

 

[Infiniti2000]

However, his weakness is adaptation. An enemy moving away disrupts the rhythm, and the attack is weaker.

Then, Gren should give up the Speed of Thought power! Or any immediate power like Lightning Rush.

In other words, no it can't. twilsemail's comment is rhetorical. There's no good answer you can come up with to explain the crappy mechanics. Anything you do to try and justify the crap mechanics through flavor is just so much bs.

 

[twilsemail]

No, the point is that the knight and slayer got benefits from two stats (Str for Melee Basic Attacks and Con or Dex for additional benefits). Through Melee Training these classes could get all benefits from a single stat.

A slayer could focus on Dex and get high AC, high attacks and lots of damage on melee and ranged from Dex alone. Without the need to invest in Strength, the slayer could put a few points in Con for extra hp and better Fort.

So in fixing an overpowered combination with the new material they're introducing, they've gimped all of the preceeding classes?

If this is a problem with the Slayer (who was just introduced) where did all of this "Melee Training has needed nerfing for a while now" come from?

Wouldn't a better solution have been to give the Slayer a new feature that replaced the standard MBA instead of nerfing every other MBA out there?

Power "Slaying Strike" Str vs. AC: 1W+Str Counts as an MBA
All new Slayer powers replace MBA with Slaying Strike.

 

[vaultdweller]

So in fixing an overpowered combination with the new material they're introducing, they've gimped all of the preceeding classes?

Yup!

If this is a problem with the Slayer (who was just introduced) where did all of this "Melee Training has needed nerfing for a while now" come from?

Don't know. People are silly like that.

Wouldn't a better solution have been to give the Slayer a new feature that replaced the standard MBA instead of nerfing every other MBA out there?

Yup! But alas, it was not to be.