Why modern movies suck - they teach us awful lessons

[dragoner]

I understand what confirmation bias is but I don't understand how you're using it in this context.

Reinforcing cultural values = confirmation bias; or just straight up propaganda.

 

[dragoner]

DS9 was full of political, social, and religious commentary. For example the main cast included a former terrorist, with heavy beliefs, and an "other" who was in a position of authority, but whose very existence elicited distrust. That's just the two easiest ones of the top of my head.

Yeah, I was going to say the whole unionizing of Quarks bar, the deal with the exploitation of the on young woman, and the Ferengi cadet were all about as political as one could get.

 

[Guest 85555]

Can you elaborate more about this? I'm not sure what that actually looks like

Again it was just a thought, I haven’t watched a lot of newer shows in recent years so it may be wrong but some shows have felt more like the characters are lecturing the audience and sometimes the political stuff feels like it’s handled a little aggressively, not as conversationally. i am not prepared to give a speech on it or anything. I know as an example, the new doctor who series felt too much to me like it was lecturing the audience for example. And it often felt like they were going down a political check list and checking off boxes. The show was always political. I hate the term but I don’t kkuu I s what word is better: a lot if shows feel very woke to me now. I often agree with 80 percent of what they seem to be espousing but I think as an older viewer I have felt very pushed away by that crowd and the way it is handled in modern media it feels to me like a political idea is dropped in a somewhat obnoxious way and the character says ‘deal with it’. I don’t mind shows handling ideas but you start to feel like the makers don’t like you after a while and I think it pushes you away

 

[Benjamin Olson]

What, so now the videos youtube keeps recommending that I know I don't want to watch and ignore multiple times are going to get their own threads on ENWorld? The algorithm is chasing me around the internet!

Yeah, I was going to say the whole unionizing of Quarks bar, the deal with the exploitation of the on young woman, and the Ferengi cadet were all about as political as one could get.

Leading to my favorite line from the series:

 

[BookTenTiger]

Again it was just a thought, I haven’t watched a lot of newer shows in recent years so it may be wrong but some shows have felt more like the characters are lecturing the audience and sometimes the political stuff feels like it’s handled a little aggressively, not as conversationally. i am not prepared to give a speech on it or anything. I know as an example, the new doctor who series felt too much to me like it was lecturing the audience for example. And it often felt like they were going down a political check list and checking off boxes. The show was always political. I hate the term but I don’t kkuu I s what word is better: a lot if shows feel very woke to me now. I often agree with 80 percent of what they seem to be espousing but I think as an older viewer I have felt very pushed away by that crowd and the way it is handled in modern media it feels to me like a political idea is dropped in a somewhat obnoxious way and the character says ‘deal with it’. I don’t mind shows handling ideas but you start to feel like the makers don’t like you after a while and I think it pushes you away

I would argue that shows have always had such blatant political messages, they've usually just been targeted at maintaining the status quo. Any time a show had a person of color relegated to a sidekick or villain, had a female character relegated to a support or helper, showed only straight white men as leads, represented only one kind of family structure... These were all explicit political messages!

I am noticing a pattern in this conversation in which the "modern" shows that get brought up all have female or non-white protagonists. This too is a political message, but it's not any different than the messaging of shows in the past.

 

[dragoner]

What, so now the videos youtube keeps recommending that I know I don't want to watch and ignore multiple times are going to get their own threads on ENWorld? The algorithm is chasing me around the internet!


Leading to my favorite line from the series:
View attachment 153311

I think Star Trek was always political, I know that some say the original series was cancelled for having things such as the first white-black kiss on prime time or something, basically super radical for its day, I mean people were getting killed in the streets over systemic racism at the time.

 

[payn]

while I think shows have grown more political or political in different ways, this is one reason why I think the partisanship around media is bad: people, and again not just one group, are developing a distorted sense of past media and that can lead to throwing the baby out with the bath water: I.e. ‘there is too much politics in media, so there should be no politics in media’; ‘there is too much political criticism of film, so there should be be no political criticism of film’.
A lot if 90s media was very political. I am rewatching alien nation and that has a ton of political subtext. I watched Babylon 5 a couple years back and that too has quite a bit (though I do think it was often handled in a more sophisticated way than many other shows from that era). Star Trek has always been pretty political.

I agree somewhat with this. Things have not gotten more political, folks have been tuned into a positions over interests mindset. Where commentary in literature and/or cinema and television used to be discussed from multiple perspectives, has now been turned into a zero-sum game. For example, I read numerous complaints about Star Trek Discovery having "an agenda." I watched it myself and some scenes are definitely constructed in a political manner, but that doesn't mean the purpose of the show is to lean into a particular set of politics. Though, many folks have been convinced it is and wont even watch for themselves. Unlike, the ST of the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's where folks would watch if they liked it, and talk about the context of the actual writing from a critical theory aspect.

 

[Guest 85555]

I would argue that shows have always had such blatant political messages, they've usually just been targeted at maintaining the status quo. Any time a show had a person of color relegated to a sidekick or villain, had a female character relegated to a support or helper, showed only straight white men as leads, represented only one kind of family structure... These were all explicit political messages!

I am noticing a pattern in this conversation in which the "modern" shows that get brought up all have female or non-white protagonists. This too is a political message, but it's not any different than the messaging of shows in the past.

I think you are projecting things into me. I have said in many posts, there have always been politics in media: that it can be good depending on how it is done. But I don’t think old media always reinforces status quo and I think
your post is a strong oversimplification of the issue and frankly not at all what I am talking about. I believe I mentioned one show I was critical of with a female character in the lead (and the problem wasn’t the female doctor in that show: I was looking forward to her in that role and liked her performance: the writing after her first season just felt too heavy handed to me). In other media I mentioned, Star Wars: I was defending both Rey and Rose Tico because I like those characters; and my chief political criticism of Star Wars was it cast aside the obvious romance with Finn and Rose (which I read as them avoiding interracial romance because they worried it wouldn’t be accepted in some key markets).

on status quo one older show I mentioned was alien nation. I love that show and it is a far cry from promoting the status quo. Old Star Trek went against the status quo too. And diversity has been in old shows and movies too, I don’t have a problem with a strong female lead, a gay lead or a non white lead (I haven’t seen the show because it looks too action and drama focused for me—-I like hotel in space style Star Trek—- but I love the actress playing the lead in the new Star Trek series and think her as captain is a good idea). One of my favorite movies is Swordsman II which reworks a classic wuxia story to make one of the characters trans (turning that character into one of the two main characters in the story film) and adding a romance between the protagonist and that character. For me the issue I run into with some newer media is it often feels overly tied to the political topic of the moment (so it tends to get dated fast) and feels more strident in its messaging. I have no issue with making a person of color the lead or something. I think when it feels like shows are just checking off a list of identity boxes, then yes that comes off as artificial. But that isn’t my main complaint here (those characters can still be well crafted characters)

 

[payn]

I would argue that shows have always had such blatant political messages, they've usually just been targeted at maintaining the status quo. Any time a show had a person of color relegated to a sidekick or villain, had a female character relegated to a support or helper, showed only straight white men as leads, represented only one kind of family structure... These were all explicit political messages!

I am noticing a pattern in this conversation in which the "modern" shows that get brought up all have female or non-white protagonists. This too is a political message, but it's not any different than the messaging of shows in the past.

One of the things I wish folks would discuss more is the series The Expanse. This sci-fi series has women and people of color in all kinds of leadership positions. It has same sex couples, and even polyamorous relationships. Discrimination and oppression ring throughout the series, but none of the above mentioned items are targets or cause of it. It's just people in a story and their conflict is around resources and power, which is all politics typical revolve around.

Since its so understated, but demonstrated so subtlety, nobody really talks about how great that actually was to see in a modern story.

 

[Ryujin]

But I think that was more about viewing culture at the time than anything the show did. The one thing that is different here maybe, and I could be wrong is shows did fewer things to drive away viewers with different opinions (some of the more recent shows I have seen sound s but more strident to my ear but I don’t watch enough new stuff to say that for sure). I think my point though was in the 90s we would watch content that was outside our own viewpoints more

Is that it, or is it that society has moved to be more accepting, overall, and that's reflected in media? There are a lot of things that hit my "old white guy" complacency but I still watch them, in the same way, to keep the three pounds of uncooked bacon between my ears functioning.