Why modern movies suck - they teach us awful lessons

[Guest 85555]

I agree somewhat with this. Things have not gotten more political, folks have been tuned into a positions over interests mindset. Where commentary in literature and/or cinema and television used to be discussed from multiple perspectives, has now been turned into a zero-sum game. For example, I read numerous complaints about Star Trek Discovery having "an agenda." I watched it myself and some scenes are definitely constructed in a political manner, but that doesn't mean the purpose of the show is to lean into a particular set of politics. Though, many folks have been convinced it is and wont even watch for themselves. Unlike, the ST of the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's where folks would watch if they liked it, and talk about the context of the actual writing from a critical theory aspect.

I agree somewhat with this. Things have not gotten more political, folks have been tuned into a positions over interests mindset. Where commentary in literature and/or cinema and television used to be discussed from multiple perspectives, has now been turned into a zero-sum game. For example, I read numerous complaints about Star Trek Discovery having "an agenda." I watched it myself and some scenes are definitely constructed in a political manner, but that doesn't mean the purpose of the show is to lean into a particular set of politics. Though, many folks have been convinced it is and wont even watch for themselves. Unlike, the ST of the 60's, 70's, 80's 90's where folks would watch if they liked it, and talk about the context of the actual writing from a critical theory aspect.

Yes, I think it is the zero sum game thing. If we could talk about media from multiple angles, and not just two narrow political views, I think that would be better. Where I might disagree is I think that is starting to shake media: so that you go see a lot of media that seems tailored to one of these two perspectives. But honestly: we had that in the 80s too. Some movies were clearly meant for a Reagan audience, done for a liberal audience. So it is always there to a degree. It just seems to be the only conversation these days

on the new star trek my main reason for not watching is it looks to polished and epic gif my taste (and the pay wall). But I expect any star trek is going to have done politics. And I have frequently had your experience where people say a movie or show has an agenda, then I watch it but don’t see an agenda, or just see it as a small aspect of the show

 

[AnotherGuy]

Okay, the politics in DS9 were there, I'm not saying they weren't...but it is not my personal take-away for the show. I fell in love with the story, the dialogue and the characters. The question would be is why does something like DS9 with tons of political nuance not seemingly create tribalism like perhaps more modern shows. Is it our current climate? Are the stories, dialogue and characters overshadowed by the message? Is it something else? Is it all the above? I dunno.

Do you think tCD would attack DS9 along the lines of gender or race as he does shows of today? If not, why does it get a pass?

 

[Guest 85555]

Is that it, or is it that society has moved to be more accepting, overall, and that's reflected in media? There are a lot of things that hit my "old white guy" complacency but I still watch them, in the same way, to keep the three pounds of uncooked bacon between my ears functioning.

I don’t think this is it no

 

[payn]

Yes, I think it is the zero sum game thing. If we could talk about media from multiple angles, and not just two narrow political views, I think that would be better. Where I might disagree is I think that is starting to shake media: so that you go see a lot of media that seems tailored to one of these two perspectives. But honestly: we had that in the 80s too. Some movies were clearly meant for a Reagan audience, done for a liberal audience. So it is always there to a degree. It just seems to be the only conversation these days

on the new star trek my main reason for not watching is it looks to polished and epic gif my taste (and the pay wall). But I expect any star trek is going to have done politics. And I have frequently had your experience where people say a movie or show has an agenda, then I watch it but don’t see an agenda, or just see it as a small aspect of the show

I did not mean to imply that you dont watch ST Discovery because of its politics. Just that many folks have not even seen it because of criticism that have been made about it. If folks would just watch they would realize just how overstated these political criticisms actually are. Folks used to just start with whether they like a show in general or not, and could get over a statement or scene they might personally disagree with.

Okay, the politics in DS9 were there, I'm not saying they weren't...but it is not my personal take-away for the show. I fell in love with the story, the dialogue and the characters. The question would be is why does something like DS9 with tons of political nuance not seemingly create tribalism like perhaps more modern shows. Is it our current climate? Are the stories, dialogue and characters overshadowed by the message? Is it something else? Is it all the above? I dunno.

The shows are not creating the tribalism, our culture is. We (general we) have moved into a positions over interests mindset.

Do you think tCD would attack DS9 along the lines of gender or race as he does shows of today? If not, why does it get a pass?

I don't think so. There are some major character arcs and storylines that I think TCD would appreciate in DS9. What TCD would likely do is say DS9 is the good example and Discovery is the bad example. Though, that's purely assumption because I don't know TCD's thoughts on ST in general.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

What, so now the videos youtube keeps recommending that I know I don't want to watch and ignore multiple times are going to get their own threads on ENWorld? The algorithm is chasing me around the internet!

ITS ALIVE

 

[dragoner]

DS9 was better written than Disco; if that means the politics in disco seem more ham-fisted that is why. Not watching some edgelord on youtube because of the algorithm will constantly suggest a thousand more vids, except that is just it, more pandering to an audience to get views, and thus money. Same as with the rest of media. Same as all of it really.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Okay, the politics in DS9 were there, I'm not saying they weren't...but it is not my personal take-away for the show. I fell in love with the story, the dialogue and the characters. The question would be is why does something like DS9 with tons of political nuance not seemingly create tribalism like perhaps more modern shows. Is it our current climate? Are the stories, dialogue and characters overshadowed by the message? Is it something else? Is it all the above? I dunno.

Do you think tCD would attack DS9 along the lines of gender or race as he does shows of today? If not, why does it get a pass?

I think that in the past the older, more reactionary elements of society tended not to watch sci fi and therefore where somewhat unaware of the progressive messaging. With the possible exception of Mary Whitehouse, who really hated Doctor Who.

They are a bit more media savvy these days.

 

[Guest 85555]

I did not mean to imply that you dont watch ST Discovery because of its politics. Just that many folks have not even seen it because of criticism that have been made about it. If folks would just watch they would realize just how overstated these political criticisms actually are. Folks used to just start with whether they like a show in general or not, and could get over a statement or scene they might personally disagree with.

Don't worry, I didn't take your post that way. I just stated that for clarity because I know Discovery has been the subject of that conversation online. What I've heard from people I know who watch the show match what you say (and again, I just rewatched the first four or so seasons of the Next Generation last year and those get pretty political). I do think you are right that people used to begin with whether they liked the show or not, and if they didn't agree with the message it wasn't the end of things (I remember hearing a lot of people comment how much they liked a writer 'despite their crazy politics'). I don't know what has changed. I think part of is on the viewer side. I think part of it is the culture (these conversations are more omnipresent so the politics are on peoples minds constantly and a simple disagreement over a show can result in people unfriending one another, or stop talking to one another), and I think some shows simply reflect the changing culture (which you should expect), while other shows play more towards one audience or the other. When you go back and watch older media that is political (and a lot is), some of the things I have noticed is: it can date the material (but not always), if it is done poorly that is more apparent and glaring with time (and by poorly I mean too heavy handed or done in a way where the message might be a good one but it isn't coming from a well informed writer----they are relying on very simplistic arguments, etc. But it can also add a lot to the movie because: it really captures something that was in the air at the time and that gives it more power, it has some deep insight into the matter, etc. There should be some politics in our media. And I want some media to be primary about politics. I just think things are better when it doesn't feel like that is the only thing going on. And, at least in terms of the conversation, it seems that that is the case when you read reviews (and I don't mean fringe reviews but mainstream reviews in papers and major online news outlets). And it seems like more and more movies rely on heavy political subtext too.

And there isn't anything wrong with political subtext. Night of the Living Dead had political subtext. The movie Candyman had subtext. The Godfather had political subtext about America (and so did the Sopranos). None of that is bad on its own. It can be done well. The writing can be good. So I definitely say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater here. People shouldn't reject film or show because it has political subtext.

 

[Guest 85555]

I think that in the past the older, more reactionary elements of society tended not to watch sci fi and therefore where somewhat unaware of the progressive messaging. With the possible exception of Mary Whitehouse, who really hated Doctor Who.

They are a bit more media savvy these days.

I don't know about that. I knew a lot of science fiction fans in the 80s and 90s and that fandom seemed to be almost 50-50 at times. Even among star trek fans, which was a pretty progressive show, I remember many of my friends who watched it were conservatives.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'd say it's a difference of degree, and not because of any of the political junk the conservatives are on about, either. As more of the better writers and actors moved over to TV, movies suffered.

Are you sure it's not simply a bias of perception? We're aware of most films coming out today, but we're not familiar with the majority of the naughty word films from say the 1950s for example.

Also there are groups of people who today are able to make films who would have been prevented from doing so in the past, which would help offset any losses to tv.