Why Must the Rules Change?

[drnuncheon]

Epic feats makes your arms grow longer?

If you're that desperate for a rationale, you're probably moving while doing the Improved Whirlwind. They just decided that for simplicity's sake they weren't going to go into a long discussion on the movement pattern because it wouldn't add anything to the game except needless complexity that would slow things down.

More power to you. But there are those who want to play high-powered games and for now they're stuck with WotC's version. It's a monopoly, which is (at the core of it) what I'm objecting to.

How is this different from any other RPG, ever? If you want to play high powered GURPS, you're stuck with what SJG gives you or what you make up yourself. You want to play high powered Champions, you're stuck with what HERO Games gives you or what you make up yourself. You want to play high-powered Bunnies and Burrows, you're out of luck because it's out of print.

If anything, D&D is less of a monopoly than any other game, because of the d20 license.

Then why suggest it if no one's going to do it? And it's not epic levels I don't like, but those presented in the EHB. A Wiz20/Ftr20 is epic enough without giving them the feat Shoot Lightning From Sphincter.

Funny, I don't remember that feat. In fact, the feats I remember from the ELH are almost all of the 'like X existing feat/power/ability but better'. You don't get much more generic than that.

So, in conclusion, I don't like the idea that if you want Epic Levels, you have to buy WotC's book.

Again, how is this different from any other RPG, ever?

J

 

[Christian]

Smile when you say that

Sorry, forgot my smileys. Here's a few to tide you over the rest of the post.

So, in conclusion, I don't like the idea that if you want Epic Levels, you have to buy WotC's book. I know no one's forcing me, but I do feel that there is pressure there, from various sources, and I do think I can come up with rules that I like better without having to throw out the PHB after I've amassed 210,000 XP.

Well, just two comments.

1) If there's going to be a shared system for people to use for levels past 20th, someone needs to publish it, and if it's going to be widely shared, WOTC has to publish it.

The designers were between a rock and a hard place on this topic. Anyone who's played the game since, say, the late 70's, could tell you that the D&D/AD&D class system breaks down around the mid-teen levels, or even earlier according to some opinions. To use a consistent system with extended scalability from level 1, the PH would have had to use vastly changed rules from 'traditional' D&D. It would have been difficult to market this as 'D&D'. So, they took a compromise path of publishing a more recognizable ruleset, but limiting the applicability of it to 20 levels, and publishing some adjusted rules for higher levels.

2) What do you want, WOTC to stop publishing new stuff and lay off their creative staff? (Oops, probably ought to put a smiley here. )

 

[Anubis]

Why must the rules change after 20th level? It seems to me that they must to justify WotC's calling level 21+ "epic levels."

Who would buy a book that merely described the advancement of the classes from 21st to 40th level or higher, based on the information given in the PHB? WotC has to drum up interest and ensure that they sell plenty of copies of their new book, and they can't do that if it's just an extension of the PHB.

I see no reason why a character who's a Ftr20/Wiz10 or something similar, going strictly by the PHB, cannot be considered "epic" in his own right. He doesn't need "epic" feats or spells, he doesn't need "epic" adjustments to his ability scores; he fights as well as a 20th-level fighter and casts as well as a 10th-level mage. But the EHB says he's got to follow different rules over those last 10 levels.

I fully realize that I don't have to buy the EHB; no one's making me buy the EHB. However, I do feel there is some degree of peer pressure here. I have to buy the latest from WotC or I'm not doing it right. This means, to some extent, that WotC's marketing is working; they are creating demand for their product. I understand the way it works; I don't like it. No one makes anyone smoke, either, and yet lots of people smoke anyway.

I don't mean to equate WotC and Philip-Morris; in no way is D&D hazardous to one's health. However, I do think it's hazardous to one's creativity to follow slavishly the dictates of the companies that thrive on the OGL. It's very easy and simple to let other people do the thinking; then you plop down $40 or so and buy the fruits of their labors. Such consumerism isn't harmful in small doses; but after a while you run the risk of dependency. WotC and Malhavoc Press and AEG and all the other OGL companies out there become your dictators, even though they don't intend to, if you become dependent on their products.

By all means, continue to patronize WotC and Malhavoc and AEG. Just don't buy up everything under the sun. Come up with your own rules after you're comfortable in d20. I know I will come up with rules to replace the EHB, and I develop campaign seeds several times a week (not that I flesh them out so quickly). Think for yourself in broad terms. Just say no.

TWK
More of a lecture than an argument....

*In best Fidel Castro accent.*

"And THAT is what makes you all CapEtalEst PEEgs and what makes me EL PresidentA of the People's Communist Republic of COOBA!"

 

[AuraSeer]

Originally posted by The Whiner Knight:
But then, whining's what I'm known for

Well, now it is.

Originally posted by The Whiner Knight:
So, for two different rules they charge $30?

Not quite. It is true that if you stop each of your classes at level 20, and take no epic feats, then your character stats aren't much affected by the change in rules.

However, if you decide not to multiclass, your progression changes. Ferinstance, an epic monk can't keep using the same abilities-per-level chart, because he already has every ability on it. The levels from Mnk21 onward work very differently from the previous ones.

The ELH also is more than simple advancement rules. Just off the top of my head, it also contains:

• Lists of epic feats. Some are improved versions of nonepic feats, while others are entirely new.
• Rules for, and descriptions of, epic spells.
• Epic monster descriptions.
• Advice for DMs on how to keep an epic campaign reasonably believable. (E.g., how do you handle the obscene wealth levels of an epic party?)
• Setting information for epic campaigns, including an extraplanar city whose police force can handle epic threats.

Some people, like me, think it's worth the price of the book.
If you don't want it, you can make up your own rules. (Just like you could make up your own rules for psionics, instead of buying the Psionics Handbook. Or your own stats for monsters, instead of buying the MM. Or hell, don't bother buying the PH or DMG either, just create your own game system from scratch...)