Why Must the Rules Change?

[Prince Atom]

Why must the rules change after 20th level? It seems to me that they must to justify WotC's calling level 21+ "epic levels."

Who would buy a book that merely described the advancement of the classes from 21st to 40th level or higher, based on the information given in the PHB? WotC has to drum up interest and ensure that they sell plenty of copies of their new book, and they can't do that if it's just an extension of the PHB.

I see no reason why a character who's a Ftr20/Wiz10 or something similar, going strictly by the PHB, cannot be considered "epic" in his own right. He doesn't need "epic" feats or spells, he doesn't need "epic" adjustments to his ability scores; he fights as well as a 20th-level fighter and casts as well as a 10th-level mage. But the EHB says he's got to follow different rules over those last 10 levels.

I fully realize that I don't have to buy the EHB; no one's making me buy the EHB. However, I do feel there is some degree of peer pressure here. I have to buy the latest from WotC or I'm not doing it right. This means, to some extent, that WotC's marketing is working; they are creating demand for their product. I understand the way it works; I don't like it. No one makes anyone smoke, either, and yet lots of people smoke anyway.

I don't mean to equate WotC and Philip-Morris; in no way is D&D hazardous to one's health. However, I do think it's hazardous to one's creativity to follow slavishly the dictates of the companies that thrive on the OGL. It's very easy and simple to let other people do the thinking; then you plop down $40 or so and buy the fruits of their labors. Such consumerism isn't harmful in small doses; but after a while you run the risk of dependency. WotC and Malhavoc Press and AEG and all the other OGL companies out there become your dictators, even though they don't intend to, if you become dependent on their products.

By all means, continue to patronize WotC and Malhavoc and AEG. Just don't buy up everything under the sun. Come up with your own rules after you're comfortable in d20. I know I will come up with rules to replace the EHB, and I develop campaign seeds several times a week (not that I flesh them out so quickly). Think for yourself in broad terms. Just say no.

TWK
More of a lecture than an argument....

 

[Crothian]

There's peer presure to buy books? Who's it coming from? I suggest different peers if that's the case.

As for the epic level stuff, it's a great book. It explains why they changed the rules in the book. But of course there ius no need for you to use it. Heck, all you need is the SRD, you don't even need to buy books. Download a free dice program and all your spending money on is pens and paper.

As for buying everything under the sun, I'm going to continue doing it. The reason being I can afford it and I really like the new stuff Wizards, FFG, Mongoose, and the other guys are coming out with.

 

[tarkin]

Reasons why the rules must change.

1) Somethings do NOT scale up. Examples, allowing fighters to continue to increase the number of attacks can be very problematic, in part because of the fact that a natural 20 always hits. Also, the non-existence of actual 10th level spells is NOT made up for by the possible use of metamagics on higher level slots. Clearly, something of the key powers become too weak after 20th level and others become too strong. So new rules are needed.

2) By that level you are so uber fantastic that for a creature to stand against you it needs to be able to break the standard rules and use abilities forbidden to lower levels. But if you are FIGHTING creatures that can do things like Whirlwind and hit everyine at 10ft instead of 5ft, then you are going to want that same ability yourself. Hence the need for epic feats etc.

 

[Christian]

Where's kreynolds and his feat list when you really need them?

This is the 'Rules' forum. The 'Whiny Rants' forum is around the corner.

P.S. Wanna buy an Epic Level Handbook? Try it, you'll like it!

 

[MerakSpielman]

The rules for D&D don't make sense just in general. They never have. Just start a topic on a D&D board titled: Post rules that don't make sense" and see how many replies you get.

Epic rules just make a little less sense, that's all. Like, where were all those uber-powerful villians and monsters back when you were 2nd level? I could go on, but it's pointless and people would just try to argue with me about how everything really does make sense if you look at it right.

It's a game, nothing more, nothing less. I'd rather play low-powered characters, personally, because I think they're more fun.

Oh, on the topic of things that don't make sense, here's my favorite example of something that makes sense for the game, but can't properly translate into a real life scene:

Combat
Think about it.
When it's your turn, you have 6 seconds to act. After those 6 seconds, you do your next turn. Etc... Simple enough. Every time you act, a round of combat has passed, and that round of combat was 6 seconds long.
But when does the monster go? Your companions? They take their turn after you, based on their initiative. Their turns are 6 seconds long as well, so you would think that realistically that all creatures in a round of combat would be acting simultaniuosly so they could all get their actions done in the 6 seconds available in the round.
So when I cast a fireball on my turn, and the fighter runs up and attacks on his turn, we play as though the fireball went off before he moved, even though we should be using the same 6 seconds and the fireball should have been going off on second 3 (allowing me to move afterward) or second 6 (if I already moved) when the fighter should definately be caught in the blast.
Just pick a fight and try to say where everybody is in it after 14 seconds have gone by if you don't quite see what I mean.

The rules were never meant to make sense. They were meant to make a game that you may or may not find enjoyable. In the example above, you could modify combat down to .1 second incriments, with each action taking a certain amount of time, but who would want to play it?

I'm done rambling now.

 

[Corlon]

and wizards will hack the system and delete this forum in 5...4...3...2...1...

I've stated this somewhere, and its true, but it's still fun to buy the new books. And if you don't like epic levels, then... Make em start at 1st level and make sure they never acsend that high . Not very nice, and not something anyone would do i'm sure but it works.

 

[Henry]

Who would buy a book that merely described the advancement of the classes from 21st to 40th level or higher, based on the information given in the PHB?

THat's basically what the ELH is.

...he fights as well as a 20th-level fighter and casts as well as a 10th-level mage. But the EHB says he's got to follow different rules over those last 10 levels.

The only difference in said rules is Attack bonus gain, and save gain. Skills, hit dice, caster level, etc. all remain the same.

...However, I do feel there is some degree of peer pressure here. I have to buy the latest from WotC or I'm not doing it right. ...No one makes anyone smoke, either, and yet lots of people smoke anyway.

Exactly. As a business, it is their business to drum up demand; whether you buy it is up to you. We are under no peer pressure to buy books in our group; we do it because it's fun. Anyone in our group is welcome to borrow one another's books at almost any time. It's the way we GET as many books to use as we do.

...However, I do think it's hazardous to one's creativity to follow slavishly the dictates of the companies that thrive on the OGL....WotC and Malhavoc Press and AEG and all the other OGL companies out there become your dictators, even though they don't intend to, if you become dependent on their products.

and this is harmful how? There's still competition, even by yourself if you have the creativity and the resources to make a go of it. Generally speaking, great ideas introduced at the right time explode, regardless of what resources you have. See the origins of the Magic the Gathering card game for an overnight success story.

By all means, continue to patronize WotC and Malhavoc and AEG. Just don't buy up everything under the sun. Come up with your own rules after you're comfortable in d20.

And if I had the time, or the thought that I could do something better, then I would do so. A friend of ours in our group has already adapted d20 to Star Trek AND to Hanna-Barbara (you heard me right!) for experimental games for us to play. I'm playing a "Pac-man Cleric" right now, for goodness' sake!

 

[jgbrowning]

Reasons why the rules must change.

1) Somethings do NOT scale up. Examples, allowing fighters to continue to increase the number of attacks can be very problematic, in part because of the fact that a natural 20 always hits. Also, the non-existence of actual 10th level spells is NOT made up for by the possible use of metamagics on higher level slots. Clearly, something of the key powers become too weak after 20th level and others become too strong. So new rules are needed.

i like using the variant rule in the DMG 64 where nat 20's and nat 1's are not always hits and misses.

somethings are just too tough!
somethings are just too wimpy....


joe b.

 

[drnuncheon]

Epic rules just make a little less sense, that's all. Like, where were all those uber-powerful villians and monsters back when you were 2nd level?

I think that's a campaign issue, not a rules issue.

J

 

[Prince Atom]

I didn't intend for this to come off as a "whiny rant." I thought I was making a rational, well-constructed argument against mechanically buying everything WotC puts out. I apologize if it became a whine.

But then, whining's what I'm known for

This is the 'Rules' forum. The 'Whiny Rants' forum is around the corner.

Smile when you say that

Heck, all you need is the SRD, you don't even need to buy books. Download a free dice program and all your spending money on is pens and paper.

Did I come across as a cheapskate? I didn't mean to. It's just that I have less money than others on this board and I don't see the use of spending money on whatever WotC puts in front of me.

But if you are FIGHTING creatures that can do things like Whirlwind and hit everyine at 10ft instead of 5ft, then you are going to want that same ability yourself. Hence the need for epic feats etc.

Epic feats makes your arms grow longer?

Heck, I'm fighting creatures that get save-or-die gaze attacks, breath weapons, and spell-like abilities BEFORE I'm 20th level. Why aren't there feats for those abilities? Because the monsters have to have something on the PCs.

It's a game, nothing more, nothing less. I'd rather play low-powered characters, personally, because I think they're more fun.

More power to you. But there are those who want to play high-powered games and for now they're stuck with WotC's version. It's a monopoly, which is (at the core of it) what I'm objecting to.

if you don't like epic levels, then... Make em start at 1st level and make sure they never acsend that high . Not very nice, and not something anyone would do i'm sure but it works.

Then why suggest it if no one's going to do it? And it's not epic levels I don't like, but those presented in the EHB. A Wiz20/Ftr20 is epic enough without giving them the feat Shoot Lightning From Sphincter.

The only difference in said rules is Attack bonus gain, and save gain. Skills, hit dice, caster level, etc. all remain the same.

So, for two different rules they charge $30? Why not just make some announcement about such things (like they do in the FRCS) and leave it at that? They have to fill out a whole book, and they do so by making a whole raft of new things.

We are under no peer pressure to buy books in our group; we do it because it's fun.

The pressure doesn't necessarily come from the immediate group. It could come from extended sources, like the folks you see once a week or so at your local store. The ultimate pressure comes from WotC, and they need to make money.

Besides, who defines what's fun? The peer group, of course. You don't hang primarily with people who prefer CRPGs to PnP games, do you? Whomever your friends are, you see new products. There's a sense of respect in the group for the first person to get a new product. Some of the prestige of the product rubs off on its owner, no matter how possessive she may be. I'm no psychologist, but I'd say there's a strong drive to gain respect, and if in the group respect is earned by possession of new things, you're going to want to own new things and gain respect thereby. It's more of a "If you don't do this, you're not cool" sort of pressure than an "everybody's doing it, man" sort of pressure, no matter how subconscious.

Maybe it's just me

I at least tend to think that rules you buy are somehow "more official" than those you come up with on your own. Maybe it's that they don't have to be explained if everyone knows the product, whereas house rules vary widely. Maybe it's the determination that if I'm going to pay $30 for rules, I'm going to use them (rather than if I'm not going to use them, I won't pay $30).

And if I had the time, or the thought that I could do something better, then I would do so. A friend of ours in our group has already adapted d20 to Star Trek AND to Hanna-Barbara (you heard me right!) for experimental games for us to play. I'm playing a "Pac-man Cleric" right now, for goodness' sake!

I'm not saying you have to think you can do better, just different. If you like your rules better, use them. You don't have to assert that you can do better than WotC (that comes awfully close to overweening pride for my taste).

Pac-Man cleric? Are you strong against ghosts?


So, in conclusion, I don't like the idea that if you want Epic Levels, you have to buy WotC's book. I know no one's forcing me, but I do feel that there is pressure there, from various sources, and I do think I can come up with rules that I like better without having to throw out the PHB after I've amassed 210,000 XP.

TWK