why no epic levels for dieties?????

[eXodus]

i have read the epic levels handbook. via the internet i ended up with it months ago in text only form. i then looked at the real deal in my local bookstore and saw that they did not change or add much.

i personally never ever see myself using it. characters hitting epic levels are just not a reality in any of my games.

segue into another couple products i never really see myself using, faiths and pantheons and dieties and demigods.

after reading all three of these books i was upset that they do not mesh together properly.

wotc has gone the way of the fallen tsr beast and is producing books that do not operate under the same set of rules.

why does a GOD not have any epic levels? why does a GOD walk around with a puny +5 sword of everything when a epic level character gets to use a +10 sword of everything and then some?

before i am assaulted with ideas of simply houseruling things to make the gods have epic levels and +10 weapons, let me say it is not my job.

wotc has teams of designers whose apparent function is to do this themselves. what is going on over there? do they never let the various design teams in on what the others are doing?

it is silly that the elh and the god books do not work well together.

sure. you can say all you want about divine ranks and the like, but the items i am disputing is that GODS are not epic level. GODS do not wield anything beyond a +5 weapon.

i see this as lack of forward planning by the management of wotc. they cared more for turning a buck then making sure the products they produced had some sort of linear design ideas.

welcome back tsr. oh, how i have missed you....

 

[Number47]

Perhaps it has to do with their philosophy that you are not required to have any products outside the core books to use another product? Giving gods epic things is basically ensuring that you must own the ELH if you want to use their godly books. This is a BAD THING.

 

[eXodus]

a good theory, #47.

but not a good enough one. they make note in the epic levels book of a upcoming book. so that blows the theory out of the water.

besides, when did dieties and demigods become a corebook?

 

[reiella]

DDg explains the point very well actually.

As does ELH.

DDg doesn't require ELH.

 

[rounser]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

The "TSR way" would be the references to 20 other supplements stated as sources in the beginning of the 2E Evermeet book, IIRC. No thanks...

 

[jollyninja]

epic levels i can do with or without. however, with that said, do you really need the ELH to tell you how a +10, flaming bow of distance would work? i thought not. god weapons and equipment should be artifacts, not stuff my character could conceivably make at level 15+. if the DDG said as much in a paragraph, we would not be having this discussion and people would only be able to lament the book's existence, not so much of the content. i would have preffered all the wotc gods in one book to the greek, norse and pharonic pantheons but that's just me.

 

[Numion]

but not a good enough one. they make note in the epic levels book of a upcoming book. so that blows the theory out of the water.

besides, when did dieties and demigods become a corebook?

Making note of something and really requiring it are two different things. IMHO WotC has done the right thing in trying to keep the supplements stand-alone.

And no, of course D&Dg isn't a corebook. What do you mean by that question?

 

[Squire James]

As the footnote on page 26 of the DDg explains, most gods DO have more than 20 levels. In fact, ALL their class levels are really "epic levels" because "natural gods" start out as 20 HD outsiders. They obviously designed it so the ELH is not required. That is their typical rule of design for "non-core" books.

I think it is unfortunate that the DDg couldn't wait until after the ELH, so some of the more "godly" epic feats could be reprinted (and thus used by the gods). It would free up some Salient Divine Ability slots for more useful things. So complaints about this aspect seem to be warranted. However, I think the DDg has set up enough of a pattern that someone with the ELH won't have much trouble re-writing the stat-block of someone like Boccob as a Wizard 35/ Incantrix 10/ Archmage 5 if they want to!

 

[eXodus]

epic levels i can do with or without. however, with that said, do you really need the ELH to tell you how a +10, flaming bow of distance would work? i thought not. god weapons and equipment should be artifacts, not stuff my character could conceivably make at level 15+. if the DDG said as much in a paragraph, we would not be having this discussion and people would only be able to lament the book's existence, not so much of the content. i would have preffered all the wotc gods in one book to the greek, norse and pharonic pantheons but that's just me.

compare some of the gear a epic level character can have vs. the gear that was written in the dieties and demigods.

it is as plain as night and day.

yes, i know a dm can change anything they want. they can add epic levels. they can give the dieties the +10 weapons of absolute everything.

but it is not the jobs of the dms.

if you have epic level characters in a game, isn't it more logical that stats for gods would come into play then if you had a game where it all capped out at 12th level?

i would say so. who is going to be interacting with gods a epic level character or a standard character? i would say the epic level characters on both counts.

so why when these books are obviously intertwined on this span of logic are they not written with the same ideas in mind?

it simply baffles me.

we all know that you only need the core books. but wouldn't it be nice if one wanted to use alternate wotc books that they actually all worked together properly?

am i that far-reaching in my desires?

perhaps i am.

 

[Talaysen]

What's preventing you from simply giving deities epic levels? After all, when you get right down to it, deities are simply extremely powerful outsiders. They're creatures just like any other in the Monster Manual.

Which brings up a good point. The MM in and of itself isn't equipped to handle epic levels, but how many of us will give them to orcs and liches and drow anyway? Because that's the point of this new way of handling monsters and such: you can pull them right out of the book and treat them like characters. On a similar note, third-party books aren't able to discuss epic level characters at all at this point - not until the material from the ELH goes open source - but how many of us will mix and match regardless?

The ELH is designed to be retrofitted to other books. Yeah, maybe one of your books does refer to it. Sloppy editing on WotC's part, because it seems to me that it can be used with just about anything.

As for your comment on how "it's not a DM's job" - I'm sorry, but I find that statement intensely amusing. I've been DMing for years (though I'm presently on hiatus), and maybe our experiences differ - but in my experience virtually everything is a DM's job. We always have to work to make new resources fit into our campaign. Deities & Demigods, the ELH...these things are no different.