why no epic levels for dieties?????
- Thread starter eXodus
- Start date
Randolpho
First Post
eXodus, are you ignoring what people say, or just trolling?
The Deities and Demigods book was designed to be used *without* the Epic Level Handbook. Epic levels are an *option*. Divine Rank is an *option*. You don't have to use either book to play the game.
The purpose of making the books *not* dependent on each other is a simple one: Wizards of the Coast has vowed to ensure that ever product they put out will stand on its own, requiring the use *only* of the 3 core books. Notice that Deities and Demigods doesn't mention jack or
about Psionics? Why is that? Because Psionics is an *optional* book, not a *core* book. Deities and Demigods was designed, from the getgo, to require *only* the core books. Bottom line. Period.
If the DM wants to use two or more optional books in conjunction for their game, it is *up to the DM* to do the work of integrating them.
That is a Good Thing(tm), not a Bad Thing(tm). It is a Good Thing(tm) because if I want to use only one of those optional rules, and not the other (say D&Dg but not ELH), I can *do* that without having to go buy the other book.
You get your books illegally off the internet, so you don't care about which books you buy or don't. But *we* do. We *buy* the books we want. And we don't want to have to go buy *another* book to use the one we just bought.
Does that make sense?
The Deities and Demigods book was designed to be used *without* the Epic Level Handbook. Epic levels are an *option*. Divine Rank is an *option*. You don't have to use either book to play the game.
The purpose of making the books *not* dependent on each other is a simple one: Wizards of the Coast has vowed to ensure that ever product they put out will stand on its own, requiring the use *only* of the 3 core books. Notice that Deities and Demigods doesn't mention jack or
about Psionics? Why is that? Because Psionics is an *optional* book, not a *core* book. Deities and Demigods was designed, from the getgo, to require *only* the core books. Bottom line. Period.If the DM wants to use two or more optional books in conjunction for their game, it is *up to the DM* to do the work of integrating them.
That is a Good Thing(tm), not a Bad Thing(tm). It is a Good Thing(tm) because if I want to use only one of those optional rules, and not the other (say D&Dg but not ELH), I can *do* that without having to go buy the other book.
You get your books illegally off the internet, so you don't care about which books you buy or don't. But *we* do. We *buy* the books we want. And we don't want to have to go buy *another* book to use the one we just bought.
Does that make sense?
eXodus said:
What?!?
This one boggles me. You actually want me to believe that it isn't the DM's job to decide what powers, abilities, and items a god can use? Rather illogical, since it's the DM's job to decide if they appear at all.
Quite the contrary, I should think. If a DM is going to have such entities appearing in his game, it is his responsibility to make those choices. Rather that not being his job, it is instead very much his job to give a good editorial/design once-over to every single such entity in his world, rather than just using them out of the box without forethought.
Lady Dragon
First Post
As the now proud owner of both Deities and Demigods and now the Epic Level Handbook.(And I bought them both).I wuld say that I don't have a problem with the way they did it.
This is not a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing and think the decisions were well thought out and hard choices were made about what to do about the differences between the 2 books.Here are a few of the problems they had to deal with.
Their rule about not requiring any other books than the 3 core books to be able to use the majority of the info in a new book unless it is a setting supplement in which case the Setting corebook is also needed.
The books serve different purposes the D&Dg bood is mainly for DMs and stats out gods beings that the PC's worship and are unlikely to ever meet in a regular(non-epic)campaign.ELH on the other hand is meant for players(and DMs) for creating very high level PC's.If you didn't know the other one existed, you would be happy.
If they had included Epic stats in the D&Dg book how would they handle it seems to me they had 4 choices:
1.Just include epic stats and magic items,don't explain them other than to say look them up in the upcoming ELH.(you think they are getting complaints now)
2.Include the epic stats,along with a mini 4-6 page explanation of them.This of course opens a whole new can of worms.First which deities get removed to make room for info they will be printing again in three months and How many sales of Epic level handbooks do they lose because all someone wanted was what was on those six pages(most likely feats).
3.Include a brief section on how to convert to epic level in either book.Again you are left with what gets removed to make room for this new info.
4.And of course they could keep the books totally separate which is what they choose.
One does need to keep in mind that the D&Dg did come out before ELH (albeit only 3 months before) and they shouldn't be expected to have info from future products in them.
I think the more interesting question at this point however is what about the future.Is ELH a one time shot that will be quickly forgotten by WoTC even if they do eventually make it OGC.Or will we see regular references to it in upcoming products after all it is not one of the three core rulebooks but it is the closest so far to being so.
I find it interesting that ELH does include some Psionics Handbook related stuff sure if you don't have PsH you could skip over it without to much of a loss.But it is in there which gives hope to ELH stuff being included in the future.
My main intrest is with the upcoming MM2 and BoVD will they include Epic stats especially in the BoVD will the Fiendlords have epic stats.
I guess they can handle The fiendlords in one of three ways.They can give them MM stats,D&Dg stats or Epic stats.My personal preference would be Epic after all if any one takes on Orcus,Demegorgon or Asmodeous and they aren't Epic level I don't think they stand a chance and if the characters have Epic stats well don't you think the fiends should to
r the could take the route of making them minor(or major) deities(especially since many of them already have worshippers.)But most likely they will take the MM route making them not a whole lot more powerful than say a red great wyrm.
An interesting question then becomes when does a rule(s) become so important to a changing evolving game that it needs to be added to the core rules.and when that happens what do they do.
1.4th edition(noooo!!)
2.Players handbook II-corebook 4(official)
3.New updated players handbook with new chapter.
4.Do nothing just keep explaining new rules in every supplement that uses them.
1st edition took choice 2 in that they were always coming out with new official stuff them most recent being the gospel.
2nd edition took choice 4 and expalined the new stuff in every book the biggest example being kits they are never once mentioned in any of the core books they were then introduced in the fighters handbook and they appeared everywhere after that I think eventually they stopped expaining what they were simply because everyone just understood.They were the core rule that wasn't in the corerulebooks.
This is not a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing and think the decisions were well thought out and hard choices were made about what to do about the differences between the 2 books.Here are a few of the problems they had to deal with.
Their rule about not requiring any other books than the 3 core books to be able to use the majority of the info in a new book unless it is a setting supplement in which case the Setting corebook is also needed.
The books serve different purposes the D&Dg bood is mainly for DMs and stats out gods beings that the PC's worship and are unlikely to ever meet in a regular(non-epic)campaign.ELH on the other hand is meant for players(and DMs) for creating very high level PC's.If you didn't know the other one existed, you would be happy.
If they had included Epic stats in the D&Dg book how would they handle it seems to me they had 4 choices:
1.Just include epic stats and magic items,don't explain them other than to say look them up in the upcoming ELH.(you think they are getting complaints now)
2.Include the epic stats,along with a mini 4-6 page explanation of them.This of course opens a whole new can of worms.First which deities get removed to make room for info they will be printing again in three months and How many sales of Epic level handbooks do they lose because all someone wanted was what was on those six pages(most likely feats).
3.Include a brief section on how to convert to epic level in either book.Again you are left with what gets removed to make room for this new info.
4.And of course they could keep the books totally separate which is what they choose.
One does need to keep in mind that the D&Dg did come out before ELH (albeit only 3 months before) and they shouldn't be expected to have info from future products in them.
I think the more interesting question at this point however is what about the future.Is ELH a one time shot that will be quickly forgotten by WoTC even if they do eventually make it OGC.Or will we see regular references to it in upcoming products after all it is not one of the three core rulebooks but it is the closest so far to being so.
I find it interesting that ELH does include some Psionics Handbook related stuff sure if you don't have PsH you could skip over it without to much of a loss.But it is in there which gives hope to ELH stuff being included in the future.
My main intrest is with the upcoming MM2 and BoVD will they include Epic stats especially in the BoVD will the Fiendlords have epic stats.
I guess they can handle The fiendlords in one of three ways.They can give them MM stats,D&Dg stats or Epic stats.My personal preference would be Epic after all if any one takes on Orcus,Demegorgon or Asmodeous and they aren't Epic level I don't think they stand a chance and if the characters have Epic stats well don't you think the fiends should to
r the could take the route of making them minor(or major) deities(especially since many of them already have worshippers.)But most likely they will take the MM route making them not a whole lot more powerful than say a red great wyrm.An interesting question then becomes when does a rule(s) become so important to a changing evolving game that it needs to be added to the core rules.and when that happens what do they do.
1.4th edition(noooo!!)
2.Players handbook II-corebook 4(official)
3.New updated players handbook with new chapter.
4.Do nothing just keep explaining new rules in every supplement that uses them.
1st edition took choice 2 in that they were always coming out with new official stuff them most recent being the gospel.
2nd edition took choice 4 and expalined the new stuff in every book the biggest example being kits they are never once mentioned in any of the core books they were then introduced in the fighters handbook and they appeared everywhere after that I think eventually they stopped expaining what they were simply because everyone just understood.They were the core rule that wasn't in the corerulebooks.
Tsyr
Explorer
Uh, too bad it's not a theory, but stated fact. WotC has said a number of times that this is, in fact, exactly what they are doing. It's not a theory that you can "blow out of the water", sorry.
Uh... never? That's exactly the point. It never did. Hence, the rules contained within will be stand-alone... you will not need the ELH to use D&DG, nor will you need D&DG to use the ELH. Hence, as others have said, why no gods in D&DG had psionics, or why the Manual of the Planes doesn't have ELH characters, or you don't see psionic characters in the DnD modules.
It's not WotC's job to cater everything exactly to your whims, when that would controdict their stated goals and plans for products, and royaly piss off a ton of people who support the way WotC does it.
I find it funny that you are making such a big stink about a book you don't even appear to own... It reminds me of the people on the Dungeon Siege boards a few months ago griping about how their warez copy of the game didn't work right.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
He's got a point. If I am every going to have my players meet a diety in a manner that the god's stats are important I am sure the PC's would be epic level characters. Now I have my 30th level Wizard having more caster levels than Bacoob or one of the other Gods of magic. I would have thought that if a player would buy the D&Dg book it would be a "Monster Manual" for epic and the books would be designed to be used together. If you have to rework the dieties to reflect the epic levels they should have then why even buy the dieties book? Of course I'm buying neither and using neither so what do I care? 
I have to agree with Flexor. This "It's not a bug, it's a feature" attitude of WoTC smells a little funny. Anyone dealing with the Gods on a regular basis -- certainly, if they're high enough level to want to fight them -- is going to be level 21+ (or 31+).
Which means that this campaign
1) Uses the Epic-level rules, or
2) Creates their own leveling system for levels 21+.
In the case of #1, the DM would no doubt like Deities & Demigods to be compatible with the Epic-level rules. In the case of #2, the DM is probably going to have to change a bunch of stuff in Deities & Demigods to make it compatible with his home-grown system.
In other words, anyone using the current Deities and Demigods has some work to do, regardless of what system he's using.
On the other hand, if the ELH and D&D were compatible, those who used the first wouldn't have to tinker with the second.
I dunno . . . maybe it was a purposeful decision on their part, but that doesn't mean it was a smart one.
Kind of moot, for me -- I'm never going to buy D&D. No Maglubiyet??!! WTF? And the Avatars are just way too frigging powerful to be useful in even a high level (15-20) campaign.
Which means that this campaign
1) Uses the Epic-level rules, or
2) Creates their own leveling system for levels 21+.
In the case of #1, the DM would no doubt like Deities & Demigods to be compatible with the Epic-level rules. In the case of #2, the DM is probably going to have to change a bunch of stuff in Deities & Demigods to make it compatible with his home-grown system.
In other words, anyone using the current Deities and Demigods has some work to do, regardless of what system he's using.
On the other hand, if the ELH and D&D were compatible, those who used the first wouldn't have to tinker with the second.
I dunno . . . maybe it was a purposeful decision on their part, but that doesn't mean it was a smart one.
Kind of moot, for me -- I'm never going to buy D&D. No Maglubiyet??!! WTF? And the Avatars are just way too frigging powerful to be useful in even a high level (15-20) campaign.
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