why no gnomes?

[LordAO]

Well, if you think about it, Hobbits (Halflings) aren't too different from the Gnomes of legend. They are jolly little folk who live in mounds in the earth and enjoy nature and having a good time.

Keep in mind that as fantastical as anything in Tolkien's works were, he always made them realistic enough that we can relate to them. Everything in his world had a certain humanity to it. So its no surprise that Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits aren't these whimsical faerie creatures running around naked in the woods throwing pixie dust on hapless human males. Tolkien avoided such sterotypes like the Plague.

 

[Emiricol]

Beardless? You might want to take a look at page 12 of the PHB (and pg 27 in the 3.5e PHB). Check the MM entry, all editions. Then you might want to retract that remark, before Gimble hears of it.

Do not meddle in the affairs of Bards, for your name is funny and scans to "Greensleves"

He's a half-gnome. I swear. I read it in a tabloid once..

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well, if you think about it, Hobbits (Halflings) aren't too different from the Gnomes of legend. They are jolly little folk who live in mounds in the earth and enjoy nature and having a good time.

Yes, but gnomes are also usually magical and related to fey.

Tolkien is usually credited with (at least) two mythical creations made from whole cloth: halflings and ents.

 

[I'm A Banana]

most modern writers are getting their thoughts from Tolkien, not from the original source material

I'd like to think that with my mythology obssession and my lack of honorifics for JRR, I'm an exception to this rule.

 

[Morgenstern]

Yeah, but funny, that doesn't at all refute the point that there is a single image of gnomes that is mythologically common.

Is, or isn't? I'm not sure which way you are arguing here. The mythological gnome that has most often made my acquaintance has little or nothing to do with those seen in D&D (which is too tall by a factor of 4 IMO).

Existing in Norse does not equal "common". If you want something that's mythologically common, try dragons. Or undead, especially vampires. There's vaguely vampiric things all over Europe, Africa and Asia. That's common. Meanwhile in Europe there's 17 things that go by the name "gnome" that have little resemblance to each other.

If you want to make it harder for yourself to identify source material by saying "well, these hopping things sorta hunger for the living, so they're vampires of a sort..." instead of just sticking to the close matches for the text you're examining go ahead , but Tolkien's elves and dwarves so thoroughtly mimic the lifestyles and cultures of the Norse elves and dwarves, that as a young gamer who had read mythology throughout his childhood and never read Tolkien until last year, I assure you that 1st ed D&D's take on them seemed awfull familiar. I always wondered where the racial antipathy between them came from though. Now that I'm older and have discovered how blatantly D&D took its concepts from J.R.R.T., I can understand the antipathy... and all the +1/+3 vs spiders swords .

Yes, that stuff that few fantasy writers since him have read. While you may have to go back a long way to find an original thought, most modern writers are getting their thoughts from Tolkien, not from the original source material. And Tokien's fiction is not a "pure" use of that source material by a long shot. He (quite rightly) used and bent the mythological types as he saw fit.

My point is that this thread has operated in ignorance several times. There are gnomes in Tolkien's work, just not in the movie . Since they -don't- resemble any of the gnomes of folklore I'm familiar with, I'm guessing that they are derived from Tolkien's gnomes with the same slavish adherance as had D&D halflings skilled at throwing rocks back in the day . Someone more acquanted with will have to explore this hypothysis, but it does seem strange to me that th original D&D races would have one "original" (that is non-Tolkien) idea and only one . Similarly, to say Tolkien's dwarves and elves are uniquely his creation because there are so many he could have drawn upon is just a way of showing a lack of knowledge about the body of work that influnced his work.

And yes, saddly, I must conceed that a majority of modern fantasy writers seem far more inclined to rehash his work, than to go truely back to the well, as it were.

(Though if one of the main characters of Wheel of Time were any more Norse, he'd have ODIN stamped on his one-eyed face )

All in good fun,

 

[Turjan]

Similarly, to say Tolkien's dwarves and elves are uniquely his creation because there are so many he could have drawn upon is just a way of showing a lack of knowledge about the body of work that influnced his work.

Creativity is a complex phenomenon. Sure, Tolkien did not invent dwarves, elves, and gnomes. But, nevertheless, you can see their development in his work. If you look at "The Hobbit", you find dwarves that might have been taken directly out of fairy tales like "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves", and the elves dancing under the trees and vanishing upon approach, or the elven "King under the Mountain" with all his cruelty are direct outtakes from Irish fairy tales. This means that he used concepts that were hundreds of years older without changing them much, right.

Later on, he developed these role models further. In LotR, dwarves got a more norse, barbaric approach. The magic of smithing is a norse concept, too. Okay, here I agree that dwarves became very similar to Scandinavian dark elves, but, on the other hand, they became more human in concept, qualifiying them for RPG's and player's races in D&D. This also means they had to grow. And I guess that's why gnomes had to grow, too.

Tolkiens LotR elves are a mix of above-mentioned Irish elves with a bit more of the "vanishing folk" aspect, a bit of norse light elves and, again, a large chunk of human. Therefore, I'd say that Tolkiens "creation" consists of making those fey creatures from myths and fairy tales of old much more human-like. Without this process, none of these races would have found its way into D&D. Who the heck wants to play a 3 inch high gnome with nothing but silly ideas in his head?

Of course, it's up to you to go to the roots in your campaign. My elves use gnome stats (more or less those from the PHB), don't like to go around in bright sunshine, and have their homesteads underground, either in forests or within mountains. In a certain sense, they now resemble Tolkien's elves from "The Hobbit". But with this, they more resemble dwarves/elves/gnomes from the myths now, too.

 

[Tallok]

what really is remarkable is D&D's insistence on using every single mythological creature/figure it can lay it's hands on.

I tend to disagree, D&D isn't insistent on using all creatures, it just gives the option. ie, monster manuals have all monsters that could fit into ANY campaign world, not a list of all monsters that need to be used. (yesyes, I know, they aren't ALL the monsters out there, but, you get the point)

 

[Umbran]

Is, or isn't?

Damned typo demons! Sorry about that. The sentence as I intended it should read: "...that doesn't at all refute the point that there isn't a single image of gnomes that is mythologically common."

but Tolkien's elves and dwarves so thoroughtly mimic the lifestyles and cultures of the Norse elves and dwarves, that as a young gamer who had read mythology throughout his childhood and never read Tolkien until last year, I assure you that 1st ed D&D's take on them seemed awfull familiar.

I don't dispute that Tolkien is close to Norse myths in many respects. Perhaps we are simply talking past each other?

My point is that this thread has operated in ignorance several times. There are gnomes in Tolkien's work, just not in the movie .

Yeah, but they are buried in what, to the general public (and probably most fantasy authors), are apocrypha. And if what you ran into is the Noldor Elves = gnomes, then the D&D gnome is nothing at all like the Tolkien gnome.

Someone more acquanted with will have to explore this hypothysis, but it does seem strange to me that th original D&D races would have one "original" (that is non-Tolkien) idea and only one .

"Someone more acquainted" would probably be Mr. Gygax himself. Perhaps this question ought to be shunted over to one of the "ask Gary" threads in the hopes that he can simply tell us what inspired the D&D gnome.

However, now you are the one operating in ignorance It isn't so strange - because that one original thing was not, IIRC, in Original D&D. If memory serves the Basic game that came out first had various human classes (cleric, fighter, magician, theif), and Tolkienesque dwarves and elves and halflings as classes, but no gnomes. Gnomes only came on the scene later, in Advanced D&D. If the race wasn't designed at the same time as the others, it is plausible that it came from a different source, no?

Similarly, to say Tolkien's dwarves and elves are uniquely his creation because there are so many he could have drawn upon is just a way of showing a lack of knowledge about the body of work that influnced his work.

Perhaps I missed someone else saying it, but I know I didn't say that. Tolkien's work is partly drawn from Norse myth, partly drawn from other folklore, and partly drawn from his own mind. I'm not aware of anyone saying that many possible sources implies that his work was entirely original.