OneDnD Why no new packs since late September?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This really depends on how the DM runs skills and languages.
Not really. If the DM runs skills that involve nature, the 5.5e ranger is going to be far superior to the highly limited 2 terrain 2014 ranger since he has all terrains PLUS all the rest of nature. If the DM doesn't run nature challenges, the 5.5e ranger is going to be even farther ahead, because he has the option to get expertise in any skill, so can pick social or other exploration skills like investigation or perception, where the 2014 ranger is limited to the 2 terrains that are not being used.
The change of the 2014 ranger to the current playtest ranger is a nerf and a buff
He loses a small bit in combat, but so what. He's gaining huge amounts out of combat which far more than mitigate the minor downturn in combat damage. And really, he's getting the ability to learn ANY primal spell from ANY school except for evocation, which has the potential to far outweigh that loss of a piddly amount of DPR. He might not be nerfed in combat, either.
 

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dave2008

Legend
No such "proof" was given since a PC is more than just combat. I'm not going to allow myself get railroaded into only comparing combat stats when I've been talking about the whole character.
Well there is a reason I put it in quotation marks. Are you willing to breakdown your comparison for us then? It is not something I think is an issue so I haven't done it, but since you do I assume you have done a comparison? I would be interested if I need to change my opinion.
 


mellored

Hero
So new ranger much, MUCH better since skill in nature includes ALL terrains, all plants, all weather, all natural cycles, and animals(a monster type). And then they get expertise in another skill that can include a monster type or two as well as other stuff.
Old ranger gets the bonus on both Intelligence or Wisdom checks.
It's not a nerf in any campaign. If I take nature I get expertise in every terrain out there while you are limited to two. All of nature > two terrains.
I guess I didn't list the rest of the benefits old ranger gets.

While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
  • Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
  • Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
  • Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
  • If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
  • When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
  • While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.
Oh, and I could take a social skill and have expertise in the social pillar as well.
You could have expertise in the social pillar instead. If you take persuasion, you lose nature.

Different =/= more powerful
New bard gets to wait until after an ally FAILS a test before using bardic inspiration as a reaction to help. Old bard has to use it in advance and pray that it's useful within the next 10 minutes.
Old bard has more uses. And more range, since you can use it before the monk runs after the archers.

Easier =/= more powerful.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Not really. If the DM runs skills that involve nature, the 5.5e ranger is going to be far superior to the highly limited 2 terrain 2014 ranger since he has all terrains PLUS all the rest of nature. If the DM doesn't run nature challenges, the 5.5e ranger is going to be even farther ahead, because he has the option to get expertise in any skill, so can pick social or other exploration skills like investigation or perception, where the 2014 ranger is limited to the 2 terrains that are not being used.
If the DM doesn't call for many Nature check but focuses on language and knowledge, the 2014 ranger is stronger.
And the playtest burns through spells like a madman.
And at actual dungeon delving,the 2014 ranger is far better.

He loses a small bit in combat, but so what. He's gaining huge amounts out of combat which far more than mitigate the minor downturn in combat damage. And really, he's getting the ability to learn ANY primal spell from ANY school except for evocation, which has the potential to far outweigh that loss of a piddly amount of DPR. He might not be nerfed in combat, either.
Again depends on DM and campaign.

When I actually playtested the ranger in a dungeon, it ran out of spells so fast.

You know what concentrationless Hunter's Mark does. Encourages players to cast it all the time and cast other spells on top of it.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That doesn't explain the why, which is what we are really discussing.
They said why. They wanted players to make PC combinations they desired.

The designers though a 14 int halfling wizard was fine. The community didn't . So they made the +2/+1 float.

The designers though that cultural weapons doing nothing for warrior type classes was fine. The community didn't. So they let you trade out racial weapons and armor for tools.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Old ranger gets the bonus on both Intelligence or Wisdom checks.

I guess I didn't list the rest of the benefits old ranger gets.

While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
  • Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
  • Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
  • Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
  • If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
  • When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
  • While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.
I'll still take all of nature for the win. You go ahead and limit yourself to two terrains out of eight. I get all 8. And then I get expertise in something else.
You could have expertise in the social pillar instead. If you take persuasion, you lose nature.
No I don't.

"You gain Expertise in two of your Skill Proficiencies of your choice."
Different =/= more powerful
Greater = more powerful.

Speed isn't generally in issue. Getting lost is even less of an issue. The engaging in other activities is more fluff than anything else. You are rarely going to be engaged in one of those when an attack happens and will generally have alert comrades when you do engage in them. Traveling alone is going to be rare unless the party sends you ahead to scout(and you better pray nothing perceptive eats you). Foraging for food is highly limited since clerics can just make it and otherwise parties almost always carry rations with them. Tracking is useful, but a survival check can tell you all of that stuff and the 5.5e ranger can have expertise there as well and get far more out of survival than just tracking.

All in all, having nature expertise is going to be much better than two terrains with 5 corner case abilities and tracking which the 5.5 ranger can do better by selecting survival as his second skill.
Old bard has more uses. And more range, since you can use it before the monk runs after the archers.
Big deal. He has a marginal number of extra uses which is far more than mitigated by the sheer versatility the new bard has over the old bard. The corner case scenario of a monk running after archers doesn't change that.
Easier =/= more powerful.
MUCH better = more powerful.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If the DM doesn't call for many Nature check but focuses on language and knowledge, the 2014 ranger is stronger.
Why is he stronger? The 2014 ranger gets no bonus on knowledge checks when in his favored terrains. He gets bonuses to knowledge checks ABOUT his favored terrains.

"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled." Every knowledge check related to favored terrains is also a Nature check as that skill is for terrains, so the 5.5 ranger has expertise there as well.

And I'm not sure why you are bringing up languages. The 5.5e ranger gets languages as well. Maybe you mean the one bonus language for favored enemy, which really isn't a big deal when there are a lot of ways to communicate these days.
And the playtest burns through spells like a madman.
Is there something in the playtest that forces 5.5 rangers to use spells? Otherwise the rate of spell usage is entirely up to the player as it always has been.
And at actual dungeon delving,the 2014 ranger is far better.
Better than a 5.5 ranger with expertise in investigation and perception?
When I actually playtested the ranger in a dungeon, it ran out of spells so fast.
It gets the same amount of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. spell slots as the 2014 ranger, so if it ran out quickly that was on you not the class. It does get two fewer cantrips, but those have unlimited uses still, so you still wouldn't run out of spells faster.
You know what concentrationless Hunter's Mark does. Encourages players to cast it all the time and cast other spells on top of it.
Until you quickly realize that you run out of spells that way and stop, sure. Self-control is something you might need when playing the 5.5 ranger. A player's lack of self-control isn't a weakness of the class, though.
 

mellored

Hero
All in all, having nature expertise is going to be much better than two terrains with 5 corner case abilities and tracking which the 5.5 ranger can do better by selecting survival as his second skill.
So you took experience in nature and survival?
Then you don't get persuasion.

And the old ranger still gets perception, animal handling, medicine, insight against their favorite foe.

Old ranger gets 4 more expertise, in the right campaign. Plus all the other stuff you dismissed.
Big deal. He has a marginal number of extra uses
50% more uses at level 1. That's not marginal.
which is far more than mitigated by the sheer versatility the new bard has over the old bard.
Have you actually tried it?
Have you played the old and new bard side by side?
The corner case scenario of a monk running after archers doesn't change that.
I used it all the time on scouts and assassins. I'm losing versatility.

I get the feeling you would be complaining about how much more powerful the old classes where if these came out if a different order.
 

dave2008

Legend
They said why. They wanted players to make PC combinations they desired.

The designers though a 14 int halfling wizard was fine. The community didn't . So they made the +2/+1 float.

The designers though that cultural weapons doing nothing for warrior type classes was fine. The community didn't. So they let you trade out racial weapons and armor for tools.
I will agree to disagree as, IMO, we are talking about different things, but I don't care enough to waste more time on this discussion. Not saying you are not worth the time, but I don't want to spend my time on this subject.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Why is he stronger? The 2014 ranger gets no bonus on knowledge checks when in his favored terrains. He gets bonuses to knowledge checks ABOUT his favored terrains.

"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled." Every knowledge check related to favored terrains is also a Nature check as that skill is for terrains, so the 5.5 ranger has expertise there as well.

And I'm not sure why you are bringing up languages. The 5.5e ranger gets languages as well. Maybe you mean the one bonus language for favored enemy, which really isn't a big deal when there are a lot of ways to communicate these days.
How many Intelligence or Wisdom skills are there?

A 2014 ranger gets Expertise of Arcane checks to identity local magical phenomenon or Medicine checks to use local herbs or Religion check to identity the Divine symbols of typical humanoids from your favored Terrain.


Is there something in the playtest that forces 5.5 rangers to use spells? Otherwise the rate of spell usage is entirely up to the player as it always has been
Playtest Favored Enemy doesn't do much if you don't cast Hunter Mark. And less if to don't cast another spell stop it to make use of the lack of concentration on HM.


t gets the same amount of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. spell slots as the 2014 ranger, so if it ran out quickly that was on you not the class. It does get two fewer cantrips, but those have unlimited uses still, so you still wouldn't run out of spells faster.
It lets you cast 2 concentration spells at once.


Until you quickly realize that you run out of spells that way and stop, sure. Self-control is something you might need when playing the 5.5 ranger. A player's lack of self-control isn't a weakness of the class, though
The point is the class features don't do anything unless you burn through all your spells fast.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So you took experience in nature and survival?
Then you don't get persuasion.
Sure. My point is that unlike the 2014 ranger, the 5.5 ranger has choices and can go well outside the traditional if the DM's game is going to be more social than outside in two limited terrain types.
And the old ranger still gets perception, animal handling, medicine, insight against their favorite foe.
Oh! Wow! Against one type of enemy you may never encounter or encounter only rarely! Here come some orcs! I'd better get right on the animal handling and medicine.

Look, favored terrain and favored enemy are kinda crappy since almost everything about them is corner case. That's why they are changing it to make it better for the 5.5 version.
Old ranger gets 4 more expertise, in the right campaign. Plus all the other stuff you dismissed.
Sure. I'll concede that in a very, very highly corner case campaign, the 2014 could be better if the 5.5 ranger doesn't take the skills to be just as good or better than the 2014 ranger.
50% more uses at level 1. That's not marginal.
It really is, since there's a good chance they will be wasted as the 10 minute mark passes, and since you don't have the option to be reactive like the 5.5 ranger is.

I'm not sure how you think 4 uses covering 40 minutes(max) of a 24 hour day is better than 2 reactive uses covering 24 hours. And eventually the 5.5 ranger has more uses of said superior reactive bardic inspiration.
Have you actually tried it?
Have you played the old and new bard side by side?
It's crystal clear that reactive uses covering 24 hours is superior to uses covering 40-50 minutes tops and that have to be used in advance during that time period.

You use it so that the monk can go charging some archers. 20 minutes later when you aren't aware of it you hit a deadly trap and the wizard dies because you couldn't use your inspiration as a reaction to help him make the save.
I used it all the time on scouts and assassins. I'm losing versatility.
Versatility is king. That's the main reason that wizards have historically been so broken.
I get the feeling you would be complaining about how much more powerful the old classes where if these came out if a different order.
You would likely be wrong.
 

Why is he stronger? The 2014 ranger gets no bonus on knowledge checks when in his favored terrains. He gets bonuses to knowledge checks ABOUT his favored terrains.

"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled." Every knowledge check related to favored terrains is also a Nature check as that skill is for terrains, so the 5.5 ranger has expertise there as well.

And I'm not sure why you are bringing up languages. The 5.5e ranger gets languages as well. Maybe you mean the one bonus language for favored enemy, which really isn't a big deal when there are a lot of ways to communicate these days.

Is there something in the playtest that forces 5.5 rangers to use spells? Otherwise the rate of spell usage is entirely up to the player as it always has been.

Better than a 5.5 ranger with expertise in investigation and perception?

It gets the same amount of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. spell slots as the 2014 ranger, so if it ran out quickly that was on you not the class. It does get two fewer cantrips, but those have unlimited uses still, so you still wouldn't run out of spells faster.

Until you quickly realize that you run out of spells that way and stop, sure. Self-control is something you might need when playing the 5.5 ranger. A player's lack of self-control isn't a weakness of the class, though.

What you do is called cherry picking. Dismissing every disadvantage while overstating the advantages.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What you do is called cherry picking. Dismissing every disadvantage while overstating the advantages.
No. It's called experience. In close to 40 years of game play, most of the advantages of Favored Enemy and Terrain are pretty corner case. Nature on the other hand is broad and generally useful so long as you are in nature, which happens a lot.
 

mellored

Hero
Sure. My point is that unlike the 2014 ranger, the 5.5 ranger has choices and can go well outside the traditional if the DM's game is going to be more social than outside in two limited terrain types.
Yes.
But again, different =/= more powerful.
Oh! Wow! Against one type of enemy you may never encounter or encounter only rarely! Here come some orcs! I'd better get right on the animal handling and medicine.
One of those orcs might be hurt. Roll your insight to see.
I'm not sure how you think 4 uses covering 40 minutes(max) of a 24 hour day is better than 2 reactive uses covering 24 hours. And eventually the 5.5 ranger has more uses of said superior reactive bardic inspiration.
You don't see how handing out 4 buffs to each party member before kicking down the door to the big bads is better than using 2 reactions in combat?
It's crystal clear that reactive uses covering 24 hours is superior to uses covering 40-50 minutes tops and that have to be used in advance during that time period.
It's crystal clear that 4 uses is superior to 2 uses.
You use it so that the monk can go charging some archers. 20 minutes later when you aren't aware of it you hit a deadly trap and the wizard dies because you couldn't use your inspiration as a reaction to help him make the save.
You didn't use it on the monk, so the wizard is dead from the archers before you got to the trap.

Also, If I hit the trap, I die. Doesn't matter what version I have. Can't use it on myself.
Versatility is king. That's the main reason that wizards have historically been so broken.
Removing the ability to use it on scouts reduces my versatility.

Wizards historically had to be prepared, not reactive.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes.
But again, different =/= more powerful.
That Strawman fails on its face. I'm not claiming different = powerful.
One of those orcs might be hurt. Roll your insight to see.
Seeing as they are charging my party with swords and axes drawn, I really don't care if one is closer to death than the others.
You don't see how handing out 4 buffs to each party member before kicking down the door to the big bads is better than using 2 reactions in combat?
So now it's 12 uses(assuming a 4 PC group)? You only get to pick one PC per use and you don't encounter a big bad every day or even every week or even every month. You do roll both in AND out of combat, so those reactions will come in handy pretty much every day and in important situations that you can't anticipate. The 5.5 ability is not combat only.
It's crystal clear that 4 uses is superior to 2 uses.
Sure. You use your 4 uses of a BB gun and I will use 2 howitzers.
You didn't use it on the monk, so the wizard is dead from the archers before you got to the trap.
How? The wizard is at long range and has shield. We're outside so that the 2014 ranger can get some limited use from his abilities. ;)
Also, If I hit the trap, I die. Doesn't matter what version I have. Can't use it on myself.
You didn't hit the trap.
Removing the ability to use it on scouts reduces my versatility.
-1 versatility + a bazillion versatility = a lot more versatility.
Wizards historically had to be prepared, not reactive.
Which doesn't change that versatility is king. ;)

PS Don't think I haven't noticed that you completely ignored the 5.5 bard's healing ability with his inspiration, which is yet MORE versatility.
 

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