why no Warforged

Again, that sounds like a solution, but really isn't, as characters of any story origin can play in adventures from any storyline season; saying 'only characters with the Eberron story origin can be warforged' doesn't meaningfully restrict warforged in the campaign unless an additional rule that 'characters with the Eberron story origin can only play in Eberron storyline season adventures' is adopted. I'd say the likelihood of that rule is close to zero.

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Pauper

A simple futureproof rule would be that characters with Story Origin X can only play in Season X adventures until the PC finds an exit to Faerun. It's simply taking the existing Ravenloft rule and applying it to emigration from Plane X to Faerun. Once Season X is retired, there's no more influx of Plane X expats.
 
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Alphastream

Adventurer
I assume you meant 5e and not 4e, as 4e OP did have them as a legal race.
There was a long-running joke during LFR where we would continually post requesting warforged to become a legal race (even though it was). The joke started because of the multiple posts where people would ask for this (and other things) that were already legal to become legal.

Pauper clearly remembers the joke! (Thanks, buddy!)

On Pauper's question, I think it depends. The vast majority of players respond well to keeping the experience focused. There are always a few loud voices asking for a particular PC option to become legal, but the reality is that most people don't need it and will even prefer for the options to be restricted. And, the more you do that, the more it works. We saw that with Ashes of Athas. We restricted all races down to the ones for the setting and we even restricted options to not include DDI. We thought we would face pitchforks, but players and DMs really liked it - it provided them with a concentrated Dark Sun experience.

It isn't the same for something as big and diverse as LFR. And, certainly, LFR is so big as to be many things for different people. But, I still see that players prefer to keep the options down to what seems to make sense. The endless parade of crazy races in LFR was something many didn't favor. Keeping the core races prevalent (a halfling, elf, 2 humans, and a half-orc.... not a gnoll, a warforged, a shardmind, etc.) makes sense to a lot of players.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
A simple futureproof rule would be that characters with Story Origin X can only play in Season X adventures until the PC finds an exit to Faerun. It's simply taking the existing Ravenloft rule and applying it to emigration from Plane X to Faerun. Once Season X is retired, there's no more influx of Plane X expats.

We don't know what the details of the 'Ravenloft rule' are yet, or even how many adventures will allow an exit to know if this rule is going to be perceived as a good rule. I'm not a fan of taking something unsettled and hoping for the best, especially when the result (adding non-Realms material to the Realms) is already known to be an unpopular one.

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Pauper
 

Ah, I see. AL is my first foray into OP, so I missed the joke.

If there were multiple Living campaigns like before, this would be a nonissue. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case with 5e OP, as the AL staff is already stretched thin as it is. Since we're stuck in a one horse OP system, there are two main facets that need to be addressed if other planes start popping up in 5e: character portability and sales to AL exclusive players/DMs.

Part of the AL experience is being able to take your characters from table to table and season to season. By limiting PCs from Plane X to one-shot events, it is counterintuitive to the system and reduces player investment in the characters. I understand Pauper's concerns about adapting an untested rule into another, but this entire line of thought of mine is predicated on the assumption that CoS isn't going to be the only time we see another plane pop up in 5e. If WotC releases only Faerun adventures for the rest of 5e, then this whole thing is just superfluous speculation.

However, should we see another plane being featured in a published product, we run into the risk of potential lost sales among those who exclusively play AL. While the AL crowd is but a fraction of the community and the AL-exclusive crowd a fraction of that, the purpose of a business is to maximize revenue. We've already seen WotC do that with the SCAG, by releasing a product that appeals to players and DMs and being made AL legal near instantly. With the "Hardcover = AL legal" mandate we've seen thus far, it's a fair assumption that WotC will do whatever it takes to make sure that the AL crowd isn't alienated by much when releasing further content. When the day comes that another plane gets the 5e treatment, WotC will be left with pretty much three choices: lower sales projections as a result of AL incompatibility, expand the AL offerings to have separate campaigns for each plane, or find a way to connect it to the current system in the least disruptive manner.

The reason that I'm a proponent for the third option is that it's the one that makes the most sense, given Cobra Command expecting WotC to do more with less this edition. Cobra Command would kick the kobold scat out of WotC for doing something that negatively affected the bottom line, nor do I expect Cobra Command to be willing to add to the AL staff for something that only appeals to a fraction of the user base. Thus, WotC is stuck with the unenviable task of trying to create products that appeal to as close to 100% of the user base as possible. Plus, they've already got the tools necessary to make it work: Story Origin and the Ravenloft rule.

As I said previously, it's no coincidence that Ravenloft was chosen as the first non-FR setting to see a published product. Its ability to intersect with other planes made it the perfect testing ground for AL rules regarding other planes without making the public aware that they're test subjects. We'll probably go back to FR for at least S5 and maybe S6, while WotC goes over the results of their experiment. My prediction is that by S7, we'll know the future of other planes being featured in published products and their place in the AL.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Ah, I see. AL is my first foray into OP, so I missed the joke.

Then I'll forgive you for also missing LFR and the concept that the function of Organized Play is to support the core RPG's bottom line.

The thing you are talking about -- letting all options from all other campaign worlds into the Organized Play campaign -- happened in Living Forgotten Realms, the 4E OP campaign. It was, if not a disaster, then certainly one of the biggest negatives of the campaign. DMs didn't like it because it increased the complexity of play and required them to have access to rulebooks they likely didn't otherwise care to own. Players didn't like it because, as noted by another poster, it devalued the core races; many adventures opened the same way that a bad joke would have: two werewolves, a warforged, and a shardmind walk into a bar...

As I said previously, it's no coincidence that Ravenloft was chosen as the first non-FR setting to see a published product.

I think that's also an assumption -- my guess is that the designers went with the adventure/setting idea they thought would appear to the greatest number of D&D players, not necessarily Adventurers League players. Ravenloft has long been one of the most popular settings, after all.

Let's see how well this season goes before speculating on how future plane-hopping seasons might go, shall we?

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Pauper
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
Part of the AL experience is being able to take your characters from table to table and season to season. By limiting PCs from Plane X to one-shot events, it is counterintuitive to the system and reduces player investment in the characters.
The "AL experience" isn't a single thing. Organized play changes constantly, because when it doesn't (even within a single program) it becomes boring. Change is always a stress point, but the lack of change is far worse. No one program can be exactly what all people desire. We all have too many different tastes. Changing things up helps the campaign speak to more people over that time.

For example, a tight storyline season is being used this time. This works really well with Ravenloft locking us in, because now we all have a mechanical reason to go through that season and not go off-track with other stories. That's one of the big goals of this season. As with all seasons, some will love that and others won't, but what we've seen over time is that change is good for the programs.

It's also a necessity in order to learn. You can't learn without trying out new ideas.


The reason that I'm a proponent for the third option is that it's the one that makes the most sense, given Cobra Command expecting WotC to do more with less this edition. Cobra Command would kick the kobold scat out of WotC for doing something that negatively affected the bottom line, nor do I expect Cobra Command to be willing to add to the AL staff for something that only appeals to a fraction of the user base. Thus, WotC is stuck with the unenviable task of trying to create products that appeal to as close to 100% of the user base as possible. Plus, they've already got the tools necessary to make it work: Story Origin and the Ravenloft rule.

As I said previously, it's no coincidence that Ravenloft was chosen as the first non-FR setting to see a published product. Its ability to intersect with other planes made it the perfect testing ground for AL rules regarding other planes without making the public aware that they're test subjects. We'll probably go back to FR for at least S5 and maybe S6, while WotC goes over the results of their experiment. My prediction is that by S7, we'll know the future of other planes being featured in published products and their place in the AL.

Your premise is, to be fully honest, off-base here. The way you perceive WotC and Hasbro to interact just isn't accurate. From all I've learned over the years, a simpler and far more accurate premise is this one: "We launched Ravenloft because we love the setting and we thought it would be awesome and excite people." That's how they choose seasons, in a nutshell. Their core belief is that great stories sell and they saw an opportunity to tell a great story with Ravenloft. It's one of Perkins' favorites, and it's great for designers to work on what excites them.

They do look at how a season intersects with their other efforts, but it isn't a primary decision around AL. I think they know that the AL team can deliver great adventures on any storyline. Bigger concerns are likely how well it works with other partners, who may have a harder time. For example, Spelljammer would need a lot of work to be integrated into their video game partnerships.

None of this really digs into a question about rules options. The decision of how to add rules options is largely at the AL level, but is primarily based on decades of experience dealing with these issues. Over all that time, some clear lessons emerge:
- Any option will be a huge issue for some players and they will want it badly/loudly
- The vast majority of players are unconcerned whether options are allowed, especially non-core book options
- Players have a better experience when the play options fit the setting
- Players do not like for the game to get bogged down with options
- Players do not like to see overly strong options and like having limits that prevent those popping up, even if it means the loss of some non-broken options
 

This level of intelligent discussion is why I enjoy frequenting this subforum. This is a much more civil place than some of the other subforums. That thread about Repelling Blast has been ongoing since my birthday and is about as vitriolic as the "Move & Attack" thread from the WotC forums.

I'm fine with shelving the speculation of the future of AL as it pertains to other planes for at least 4-5 months. Although I still stand by my prediction of revisiting Planescape/Spelljammer coming at the end of 5e. We keep seeing stuff that is historically associated with other planes popping up in FR. Something is going on that is causing all of these connections. They've got to be setting up for something on the extraplanar scale to wrap this edition up in a bow. Hopefully, we'll see this ending later, rather than sooner. No 6th edition until at least the mid 2020's!

Now I'm off to go create a thread in the 5e subforum to get the community input about how to have Ravenloft NPCs react to the various PC races.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
Orcs dont exist as a race in Ravenloft, thus no Half orcs.
Not quite true, according to 3e. The re-fluffing used on half-orcs would work 100% for Tieflings, and might allow for Dragonborn characters. (There are also no dragons in Ravenloft, but there are powerful magicians who meddle with things better left undisturbed.)
But you as a half-orc/tiefling/dragonborn are so rare and so unusual that most natives think you are cursed. So don't be around when Bad Things happen, because you ARE "round up the usual suspects"!

Of course Curse might have decided to just skip over this entirely.
 

Tyranthraxus

Explorer
oh.. they changed it? I never actually played Ravenloft in 3e. Only in 1e /2nd ed. After my 2e Ravenloft game folded Ive never really touched the setting again. Back in 2e, Orcs definetly didnt exist. You had Caliban , which were really the same as Orcs.
 

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