Why not ask for help first?

[Black Knight Irios]

I'm for sure not the smartest player when it comes to building chars. Therefore, I stumble sometimes upon a build and think to myself, man I could never come up with such a thing.

Sometimes I read about a class' powers and features and think it looks kinda weak. Then I turn to the Wotc boards to take a read. They have really good resources about classes and builds. And after reading them I often come to the conclusion, that if you know what you are doing you can play a weak looking class (which is not really weak) and still contribute to the game in a meaningful way.

I give you the following advice (because it did help me in the past):
If you feel like your chosen class is to weak, go to the WotC boards. They have boards for every role and a CharOp board. There are so many good class guides there and you can post your build and let them help to improve it.

Some other points I like to point out:

• You can't cover every base with a char and be as good at your job as someone who specialized.
• Playing 18&8s will not lead to your happiness because you will have problems selecting your feats, your rider effects on powers are weak (and you will have more than one weak NAD).
• As a result aim for something in the middle.
• There are many choices you can make and there are some that are really meaningful but that is not equal to a bad game design.

One thing is true, there are classes that can do something that you can do better than you. But even then, they can't do everything you can do or the way you do it.
You are still not useless you are different. Are warlords useless leaders because clerics add their WIS to the healing they do? -No.

And one thing to keep in mind when comparing builds and options ATM is that only the martial power source has a power-up book. Others will follow.


So to sum this up:
If you feel like you're playing a weak class, ask for advice.


Now it is up to you.

Share your thoughts and opinions and if possible resources and pieces of advice that will help people looking for aid in the future.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I remember someone saying to me "what's the point of an elf rogue? His natural proficiencies are redundant"

I pointed out that there were some interesting possibilities inherent in a race which has no penalty for shifting in difficult terrain with a class that has powers with multi-square shifting.

Similarly, someone said "what's the point of an eladrin rogue? He gets longsword proficiency which is useless to him"

I suggested that he could play a TWF brutal rogue, who uses longsword in his primary hand and dagger in his off-hand. He can then use his longsword for OA and other basic attacks (possibly enhanced by Eladrin Weapon Training) and his dagger for his 'rogue power' attacks. He can also eventually benefit from TWF and TWD feats.

One guy I played with was frustrated that his 5th level wizard was useless because he rolled poor damage on his fireball and most of his foes saved against sleep. I've played a 4th level wizard whose Flaming Sphere ruled the day.

Sure, most classes have some bad powers to choose from at some levels (level 9 for Str paladin for example?), but most classes are good at doing something - you just have to make sure your expectations match up to what the class provides!

Cheers

 

[Jack99]

One thing to remember is that many of the suggestions you will find on the boards you recommend are not well-rounded, but one-trick-ponies. And while these OTP's look very impressive on paper, they are rarely that good in a campaign where not every situation and magic item is tailored to your character.

If you focus everything on offense, what happens when you actually need some defense?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My thing is to design the PC so that the mechanics match the fluff. I want the PC to be the best version of himself/herself/itself that it can be.

If that means the PC is a "One Trick Pony," so be it. If he's a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None," again, so be it.

The only time I don't follow my heart on PC design is when I'm coming in to fill a definite slot in the party for some reason or the other.

And, FWIW, PC design is one of my favorite parts of any RPG. As a consequence, whether I'm a DM or just another player at the table, or even here online, I don't mind helping others design their PCs at all- regardless of design style.

IOW, I don't keep using my preferred design criteria to influence others- I start off by asking the player what they want the PC to be like, what they want him to do- and depending upon the RPG in question, which resources are available- and THEN start talking design.

 

[Kichwas]

One thing to remember is that many of the suggestions you will find on the boards you recommend are not well-rounded, but one-trick-ponies.
[. . .]
If you focus everything on offense, what happens when you actually need some defense?

Since I've been in MMO land so much these days, this is reminding me of having a character there specialized too deeply in filling just one single, even if vital, role in a group. The problems arise when you don't have your group there with you.

That's very common in online computer games, but not so much in a table top RPG. When you sit down around the table, chances are the same people are going to be sitting with you there every session.

So... it might be that yes, you can get away with a one trick pony if you do always have your mates there watching your back.

The problem with being too diverse in what you can do is that nobody at the table ever gets their moment to shine. I've been in a lot of games like this where one player thinks they're the one playing 'role X' but another one, two, or three in the group pipe up real fast anytime situation X comes up...

So... that's just a counter concern. Sometimes you might want one of those one-trick pony builds -if- you know that trick gives you a unique space in the group. If on the other hand, your trick is being filled in part or whole by some of the others, look elsewhere.

Having some diversity in what your character can do, but make sure that in so doing you don't step on the toes of another player's character.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I remember someone saying to me "what's the point of an elf rogue? His natural proficiencies are redundant"

I pointed out that there were some interesting possibilities inherent in a race which has no penalty for shifting in difficult terrain with a class that has powers with multi-square shifting.

Similarly, someone said "what's the point of an eladrin rogue? He gets longsword proficiency which is useless to him"

I suggested that he could play a TWF brutal rogue, who uses longsword in his primary hand and dagger in his off-hand. He can then use his longsword for OA and other basic attacks (possibly enhanced by Eladrin Weapon Training) and his dagger for his 'rogue power' attacks. He can also eventually benefit from TWF and TWD feats.

One guy I played with was frustrated that his 5th level wizard was useless because he rolled poor damage on his fireball and most of his foes saved against sleep. I've played a 4th level wizard whose Flaming Sphere ruled the day.

Sure, most classes have some bad powers to choose from at some levels (level 9 for Str paladin for example?), but most classes are good at doing something - you just have to make sure your expectations match up to what the class provides!

Cheers

You provided some examples how to get some use out of something others deemed as useless. Nice.

And the bolded sentence is at the heart of that problem. I think there are still many players who don't really know what they can expect from a class or how to make it work efficient.

One thing to remember is that many of the suggestions you will find on the boards you recommend are not well-rounded, but one-trick-ponies. And while these OTP's look very impressive on paper, they are rarely that good in a campaign where not every situation and magic item is tailored to your character.

If you focus everything on offense, what happens when you actually need some defense?

That is partially true but I also said you can post your char idea and let them help to make it efficient. You can set the parameters for what you want to be good at.
If you just say I want to be the king of damage, they'll give you something that does that, maybe you have low HP and two weak NADs but you didn't say you wanted a well rounded char.

So be precise when you ask for help.

 

[aurance]

That is partially true but I also said you can post your char idea and let them help to make it efficient. You can set the parameters for what you want to be good at.
If you just say I want to be the king of damage, they'll give you something that does that, maybe you have low HP and two weak NADs but you didn't say you wanted a well rounded char.

So be precise when you ask for help.

I agree with this. The WotC CharOp forum people are helpful, as long as you are fairly specific in what kind of help you are seeking. Post your character's current stats, state what you absolutely must keep, and you will generally get some decent suggestions.

Incidentally, a lot of the "one trick pony" builds in 4e tend to work fine in regular play, unlike many of the previous edition builds.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You provided some examples how to get some use out of something others deemed as useless. Nice.

I like doing that for PCs- like my Monk Polearm or my Armored Sorcerer characters.

 

[Jhaelen]

So to sum this up:
If you feel like you're playing a weak class, ask for advice.

I agree with your summary, but I wouldn't really recommend visiting WotC's CharOp forum unless it has changed a lot in the last two years:

Back then the forum was full of theorizing, completely impractical 'advice' mainly based on finding the most broken combos that the most farfetched interpretation of 'RAW' would turn up. You'd find the aforementioned one-trick ponies and min-maxed cookie-cutter builds but rarely anything that was actually useful for a concrete problem in a real game.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I agree with your summary, but I wouldn't really recommend visiting WotC's CharOp forum unless it has changed a lot in the last two years:

Back then the forum was full of theorizing, completely impractical 'advice' mainly based on finding the most broken combos that the most farfetched interpretation of 'RAW' would turn up. You'd find the aforementioned one-trick ponies and min-maxed cookie-cutter builds but rarely anything that was actually useful for a concrete problem in a real game.

There is still a lot of theorizing and builds that stretch RAW/RAI but they also started to banish some cheese (like spiked gauntlets + reckless/bloodclaw) for building chars. Other cheese is likely to follow.

And if you say my DM doesn't allow x and y, you will still get useful replies.

Try looking around and you will find builds that you can play at the table with your friends w/o being the ultimate one-man-show.