Why NOT DDi?

[klofft]

As someone new to 4th, I've already been bitten by the desire to get all the books for it. For 3.5, I went a little crazy and in the span of 2 years (and with judicious sale shopping) accumulated every WotC hardback they put out for it (including FR and Eberron). At the moment, 4th edition is actually a lot cheaper in that regard.

But DDi seems to be looking at me and saying, "Why the hell would you do that? Every thing in all those books is sitting here for 6 bucks a month - as well as quite a bit you wouldn't have access to also."

Yet I don't want to hear it's siren call. I'm sure the character and monster builder are great. The compendium sounds awesome. I used to love reading Dragon and Dungeon.

But I have an issue with spending my gaming money on something that doesn't net me something tangible in my collection. If I was a member for 3 years while playing 4th edition, I would have spent around $200 just to use tools that I couldn't keep.

So I have two questions:
1) Most importantly, if you too play 4th and don't use DDi, why?
2) How much of DDi is downloadable vs. online only? If a lot of it can be DL'd, I don't mind keeping PDFs and the like.

Thanks for your help. I'm already chomping at the bit to start sale hunting and picking up books, but I think I need to know what I'm doing first.

 

[Kzach]

But DDi seems to be looking at me and saying, "Why the hell would you do that? Every thing in all those books is sitting here for 6 bucks a month - as well as quite a bit you wouldn't have access to also."

I think this is a common misconception although it seems to be one that WotC have zero interest or inclination in battling. The fact is that DDI does NOT give you everything in the books. In fact, there is a heck of a lot that ISN'T in DDI.

Having said that, as a reference tool both in and out of game, it's amazing. If I was regularly DM'ing, then I'd consider the price worth it for access to the Compendium alone. The Character Builder, Monster Builder (not yet finished though) and VTT are icing on the cake.

Personally I'm not a fan of Silverlight and think there were ten thousand better ways they could've gone about giving us a cross-platform solution, however it's polished and workable enough that at the very least it's not a headache to use. The lack of customisation in it, however, is and for that I'd recommend doing a search for CBLoader.

 

[delericho]

As someone new to 4th, I've already been bitten by the desire to get all the books for it. For 3.5, I went a little crazy and in the span of 2 years (and with judicious sale shopping) accumulated every WotC hardback they put out for it (including FR and Eberron). At the moment, 4th edition is actually a lot cheaper in that regard.

Is it? I haven't done the count, but there sure seem to be a lot of 4e books out there.

Anyway, here's my take on it: you would be mad to buy all the 4e books. A lot of them are extremely crunch-heavy, and those are genuinely better handled by using the DDI (more on this later). However, the fluff-heavy books are maybe worth a look.

But, seriously, I would invest in a couple of the Essentials books (the two "Heroes of..." books and the "Rules Compendium"; maybe the "Dungeon Master's Kit"), and nothing else, unless you were specifically planning a campaign in the 'new' FR or Dark Sun. (You've already mentioned owning the 3e Eberron books, so don't bother with the 4e ones.)

But DDi seems to be looking at me and saying, "Why the hell would you do that? Every thing in all those books is sitting here for 6 bucks a month - as well as quite a bit you wouldn't have access to also."

Yet I don't want to hear it's siren call. I'm sure the character and monster builder are great. The compendium sounds awesome. I used to love reading Dragon and Dungeon.

The Character and Monster Builders aren't great. However, they are somewhat useable, and gradually (and painfully) getting better. The Compendium is pretty good. Dungeon and Dragon (especially Dungeon) are sad parodies of their former selves, although they too are gradually getting better.

Despite that, the DDI is a steal. If you're serious about playing 4e, and especially if you're running it, and double especially if you were going to get all the books, you really owe it to yourself to at least seriously consider it. Frankly, for me it's a no brainer - get a DDI sub; forget the books.

The thing is, although that Character Builder frankly isn't good software, it is unbelievably useful. I simply wouldn't play 4e without access to it. For me, that's the "killer app".

The other key thing is that 4e has had a lot of errata, and more is coming all the time. The DDI handles all of that for you. Physical books, of course, don't change with time. Worse, the later books in the series assume not only that you're using the older ones, but they also assume the use of errata. Thus, there is no current and consistent set of the latest version of the rules in print. To get a consistent ruleset, you have to go Essentials-only, and that's really quite limiting compared with all of 4e.

But I have an issue with spending my gaming money on something that doesn't net me something tangible in my collection. If I was a member for 3 years while playing 4th edition, I would have spent around $200 just to use tools that I couldn't keep.

That's definitely an issue. And it's going to be much more of an issue when (not if) WotC release 5e, and the 4e version of the DDI suddenly goes away. This time out, WotC really will be sending out the Edition Ninjas to take away your books.

But ask yourself this: how much do you really use your 3e books? Honestly? Or are you, like me, someone who uses 5% of his collection extensively, and the other 95% barely if at all?

Honestly, I would argue that if you are actively playing 4e, $6 a month is a small price to pay. And when 4e goes away (and it will), you'll probably want to move to 5e anyway, at which point any tangible books will probably just become clutter in your house.

So I have two questions:
1) Most importantly, if you too play 4th and don't use DDi, why?

I play, but won't run, 4e, and I don't have a DDI subscription. (My DM keeps my characters up-to-date.)

My reason for this is simple: it is my policy that I don't spend money on games unless I'm intending to run them in the near future. I've spent too much on books that I've never used to do otherwise.

2) How much of DDi is downloadable vs. online only? If a lot of it can be DL'd, I don't mind keeping PDFs and the like.

I believe Dragon and Dungeon are downloadable (as PDFs of the individual articles). The various tools aren't. I also think (but am not certain), that the Terms of Use state that if you end your subscription, you're supposed to delete any DDI materials from your computer (might just be the tools, though). Obviously, that's almost completely unenforceable, so would be a matter for your conscience...

 

[klofft]

I think this is a common misconception although it seems to be one that WotC have zero interest or inclination in battling. The fact is that DDI does NOT give you everything in the books. In fact, there is a heck of a lot that ISN'T in DDI.

Having said that, as a reference tool both in and out of game, it's amazing. If I was regularly DM'ing, then I'd consider the price worth it for access to the Compendium alone. The Character Builder, Monster Builder (not yet finished though) and VTT are icing on the cake.

Personally I'm not a fan of Silverlight and think there were ten thousand better ways they could've gone about giving us a cross-platform solution, however it's polished and workable enough that at the very least it's not a headache to use. The lack of customisation in it, however, is and for that I'd recommend doing a search for CBLoader.

What are some examples of things that are not in DDi?

 

[the Jester]

1) I was an early subscriber, but finally dropped when the quality of the online offerings dwindled to virtually nil and WotC replaced the offline CB and MB with online versions that are highly inferior.

It's getting better, but until the Monster Builder can actually BUILD A MONSTER, I'm disenchanted with the lost functionality.

 

[OnlineDM]

I agree with the approach [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] outlined, but not all of his sentiments. I think getting Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, the DM Kit and the Rules Compendium plus a DDI subscription is all you'd need. Honestly, you might even be able to skip the Heroes books.

I own copies of Arcane Power, Divine Power and Primal Power. I feel like I wasted my money on those, since everything I'd need from them is in the Character Builder.

I think the Character Builder is a fantastic piece of software. No, it's not perfect, and yes, it still lags behind the old downloadable Character Builder in terms of functionality (custom content, customizable character sheets). But I'm getting into Pathfinder now, and I really miss the convenience of the 4e Character Builder.

As for stuff that's in the books but not DDI, someone probably has a pretty complete list somewhere, but here's what I know of off the top of my head:
- The rules for how a beastmaster ranger's beast companion works
- Rules for familiars
- Probably some other one-off rules like this for particular classes or builds
- Fluff for the monsters (descriptions of what they look like, how they act)
- Illustrations from the books

It sounds to me like you enjoy collecting books, in which case I'd say to go ahead if you have the money. But the odds are you won't use them - you'll use the Character Builder.

 

[wlmartin]

As someone new to 4th, I've already been bitten by the desire to get all the books for it. For 3.5, I went a little crazy and in the span of 2 years (and with judicious sale shopping) accumulated every WotC hardback they put out for it (including FR and Eberron). At the moment, 4th edition is actually a lot cheaper in that regard.

That is how they make their money. Pretty books that you JUST MUST HAVE!

They make a great collection!

But DDi seems to be looking at me and saying, "Why the hell would you do that? Every thing in all those books is sitting here for 6 bucks a month - as well as quite a bit you wouldn't have access to also."

Mmmmmm, yes but DDI is a database, it isn't a book. The information in the books are more than just numbers, they explain the game and facets of it a lot more that DDI can. DDI is a great tool (I dont currently use it, its the cost that puts me off!) but it is not a replacement for the books.

Put it this way, if you had to pick one - You would pick the books, the DDI subscription just gives you a quick and convinent way to use the data, number and rule information quickly.

Yet I don't want to hear it's siren call. I'm sure the character and monster builder are great. The compendium sounds awesome. I used to love reading Dragon and Dungeon.

But I have an issue with spending my gaming money on something that doesn't net me something tangible in my collection. If I was a member for 3 years while playing 4th edition, I would have spent around $200 just to use tools that I couldn't keep.

Tell me about it. I am a grown man and can afford to spend money on things but I find anything I spend money on that isnt essential (such as for my hobby) when I am married is a waste unless I can justify some real use out of it.

I used to play DDO a few years back, I didn't subscribe and would rather spend DAYS or WEEKS grinding favor points to get the same difference as £4 worth of DDO points!

I have thought about going back to DDO and if I did, I would do the same. I think part of it is that I am a skinflint miser scrooge mcduck but the other is that if someone gives you the choice of getting something for free but it requires hours of work or something for a "lil" money and takes no work, I pick the free options... because its free!!!

So I have two questions:
1) Most importantly, if you too play 4th and don't use DDi, why?
2) How much of DDi is downloadable vs. online only? If a lot of it can be DL'd, I don't mind keeping PDFs and the like.

I don't use DDI because it costs money. I am not against WOTC making money and think it is a great idea but if I can live without it (which I can with my corebooks) then I do... its a luxury I dont need

As far as I am aware, the DDI system is designed that it is all kept with them, nothing is meant to be taken offline.

 

[wedgeski]

I use DDI heavily and it's amazing value in almost every way. The Monster Builder is pretty much the only serious blight on it as of right now, as well as the lack of house-rule support in the CB. These are common and reasonable complaints, but the package as a whole is exceptional value for money.

In answer to your second question, stuff like Dungeon and Dragon articles is downloadable, but not the core rules material. The tools are now all online and your characters are stored in the cloud as well. The compendium gives you access to every new race, class, power, feat, item, etc., and you get access to downloadable art galleries if you're a subscriber, so from a content perspective you could say the books aren't worth the extra money.

However, a book is more than just the sum of its rules and art. The DM-oriented volumes such as Open Grave, Manual of the Planes, etc., are essential purchases, IMO.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To me, it boils down to this: I don't think that what I'd get would be worth what they charge.

If I plan on keeping the 4Ed books I currently own for as long as I have my AD&D books (34 years) that will cost me about $580 plus incidentals from the processes of storing or moving them.

If I were to do that for 4Ed in DDI form- assuming it stays at $6/month for 34 years (unlikely) and all incidentals aside- that would come out to $2448.

I don't know about you, but I can think of a lof of things to do with $1,868.

 

[fba827]

I have played 4e since it was released and have not once subscribed to DDI.

Not that I don't agree with it, and I do see many benefits to it, but it is a matter of cost and so I made the choice of book vs., electronic. and I prefer the books.

* I already spend enough time attached to my computer.
* I think of table-top gaming as a paper/book/social experience.
* There are situations where I want to do some reading and a book is more convenient than an electronic device
* I prefer making my PCs (and monsters adjustments) by hand as it helps me understand the rules and my character and lets me customize the layout of my sheet EXACTLY the way I want it


On the other hand, I do see the advantages of DDI, particularly -- not taking up space, access to all crunch, and it is much easier to search/cross-reference, as well as auto-updated. But those are all things I'm willing to work around based on my preference for books.
(I don't buy every book, I think I have maybe 15, half of which are player oriented like PHBs and power supplements, and the other half of which are more DM reference oriented like MMs)