Why not monks?

[EUBanana]

The MAD thing with monks is overblown I think.

So they need Dex and Wisdom. Okay.

18 Dex is 17 points and gives a rogue +4 to AC.

14 dex and 14 wis is 10 points, and gives a monk... +4 to AC. If you look at it that way, their MAD is actually an advantage.

Their main stat is strength though, just ramp that up like you would a fighter. A monk with strength >20 does plenty of damage, and there are feats that can let them get even more attacks/damage in (vicious stomp and trip, as one example), plenty of which they get as bonus feats.

Not quite as nails as fighter, but then they shouldn't be IMO. They got abilities fighters don't have, after all.

 

[DDogwood]

See, the problem I see with this thinking is that yes, there is someone who does what the Monk does better than the Monk at INDIVIDUAL ABILITIES, except for Fast Movement.

Any caster with a movement spell is better than a Monk at fast movement, too. A 1st level bard, sorcerer or wizard can cast Expeditious Retreat for the same movement speed as a 9th level monk.

Monks are a cool class, and I enjoy playing mine. I even got to star in a recent game session, where a fellow party member bet an NPC that I could beat four of his guards at once in unarmed combat. This is a corner case, though, and most of the time the only reason my monk contributes meaningfully in combat is because we rolled our stats and mine are STR 17, DEX 17, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 18, and CHA 8 after racial mods. If I had similar stats to the rogue, cleric, fighter, or sorcerer I would be the least useful party member - and we're only level 3.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

And well you should be. If the Fighter can't fight, they're useless. The Monk has numerous other abilities to be useful without just standing and trading blows.

But standing there and taking blows IS using Flurry of Blows...

The MAD thing with monks is overblown I think.

So they need Dex and Wisdom. Okay.

18 Dex is 17 points and gives a rogue +4 to AC.

14 dex and 14 wis is 10 points, and gives a monk... +4 to AC. If you look at it that way, their MAD is actually an advantage.

...

But the rogue can use armor, which is much cheaper than Bracers of Armor.

 

[EUBanana]

A monk can get a friendly mage to cast Mage Armour on him for nothing, and that stacks with all the monk AC bonuses they get which rogues do not, at the levels in which a rogues leather armour might give the rogue a meaningful advantage.

A monk can buy potions of mage armour if there are no friendly mages, the cost of them is nominal after a couple of levels, or use a wand of mage armour.

At higher levels the rogue can have a belt of dex and magic armour, but a monk can have a belt of dex and a headband of wisdom, so the MAD thing is a misnomer there as well. It's actually a benefit, letting the monk pump two stats instead of one, which is cheaper, always cheaper. Two +2 items instead of one +4 item = cheaper. The money saved goes on the bracers, which are better than leather armour anyway because leather armour doesn't work on touch attacks, which seem to be fairly common to me.

UC's style feats are quite powerful too and clearly aimed at monks. Crane style is my fave, letting one melee weapon attack a round be ignored, thats solid, and it would be difficult for a rogue to get that. The fighting defensively is good too. A monk who opted for crane style as his build would easily have the highest AC in the party at level 1 with mage armour I think, and assuming you've got high strength, his attacks would still be respectable for his level.

As for moving around, carry throwing stars and use as necessary, it always gives you the option at least. The damage dice is less relevant than your strength bonus. When moving an attacking go for a maneuver rather than a single punch, and then flurry them next round.

 

[gamerprinter]

Stuff.

Very good points! When most people are looking at Monk and their MAD skills, they are looking at a monk in a vacuum - on the class alone. Whereas, monks are never alone, almost always being with a spellcaster in the party. And magic items for Dex and Wis are never included in the arguments. And as you say, UC comes with tons of feats specifically for monks.

I'll have to remember these points the next time I see a MAD monk thread.

GP

 

[Walking Dad]

Having to pay each time for a spell effect 'cast' on you isn't very cost effective.
Also the rogue can wear an amulet of natural armor instead the unarmed attack enhancer.

Many sorcerer learn shield and not mage armor.

If the adventurers are surprised, the wizard would have to 'waste' his action to give the monk the 'armor'. The same action could 'haste' the whole group.

And the items may contain 'ony' a first level spell, but if you want to increase it's duration to be good for multiple encounters, you have to buy them at a higher CL.

BTW, the crane style is also great for non-monks.

 

[EUBanana]

Having to pay each time for a spell effect 'cast' on you isn't very cost effective.
Also the rogue can wear an amulet of natural armor instead the unarmed attack enhancer.

Many sorcerer learn shield and not mage armor.

If the adventurers are surprised, the wizard would have to 'waste' his action to give the monk the 'armor'. The same action could 'haste' the whole group.

And the items may contain 'ony' a first level spell, but if you want to increase it's duration to be good for multiple encounters, you have to buy them at a higher CL.

BTW, the crane style is also great for non-monks.

You almost never cast mage armour in a fight, you cast it before a fight. Given a monk has stealth by definition the party with a monk in it has a scout, therefore finding out when a fight is imminent should be well within your grasp. Given how many 1st level spells a wizard gets due to his mega int, having 1 saved for the monk who gets between him and the baddies seems like a no brainer.

If a mage is able to cast haste, his mage armour lasts 5 hours at least anyway so the point is almost always moot, at least if it's a dungeon bash. If not, the monk can carry potions as spares for those unanticipated encounters. 50 gold for 1 hour of mage armour, you could have 30 for the same price as the suit of ordinary full plate which a low level fighter soon buys, and that would probably have you covered for your entire adventuring career where mage armour is relevant.

All the styles are good for non monks too, of course, but given they all have unarmed combat as a required feat, which is useless to a non monk, it's going to be pretty inefficient, especially given a fighter will quite possibly be getting combat expertise to get the cool maneuvers, thus making crane style somewhat redundant.

And monks can always use magic sianghams or whatever if you really want to avoid the amulet of mighty fists. I don't think it's necessary though. Rogues are absolutely god awful, sneak attack as a combat strategy is a joke, so if t he rogue has some little thing he can use, well done rogue. I think most DMs would probably ignore the brass knuckles errata for monks anyway, which makes the whole amulet issue irrelevant. Thats probably the one rules tweak I would apply, and it is a minor one.

 

[EUBanana]

belt of incredible dexterity +4 = 8000
amulet of natural armour +2 = 8000
leather armour +3 = 9000

= 25,000, +9 AC. Might be only +8 AC if you need padded leather.

80 potions of mage armour (lol) = 4000
belt of incredible dexterity +4 = 8000
headband of wisdom +4 = 8000
+1 monk bonus = free

= 20,000 +9 AC, better versus touch attacks, +2 will save as well as a nice side effect

 

[DDogwood]

Why buy +3 leather instead of, say, +2 mithral chain shirt? The armor penalty is still 0, but it gives +7 AC all by itself.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to compare the monk to the rogue, btw. You're trying to prove that monk isn't the worst class in the game by comparing it to the second-weakest class, and by comparing AC, which isn't as important for Rogues as it is for Monks.

The real problem with MAD for monks isn't when they have multiple attributes that contribute to a single stat, it's when they need multiple attributes for several related things. Monks need Str to hit and do damage, Dex and Wis for AC, and Wis for several of their other abilities. A Rogue can use Dex for most of the essentials, and can have good skills and do respectable damage without pumping any other stats. A rogue with a 16 Dex and 8 in every other stat can still be a decent Rogue; a Monk with a single 16, or even a couple of 14s, with 8s in everything else is going to be nearly unplayable.

 

[EUBanana]

So, I'm planning on playing this guy in the next campaign we play. I'm playing a 10th level paladin atm, so not a stranger to the melee...



Feilong, level 10 monk martial artist

Str 20 (22)
Dex 14 (16)
Con 12 (14)
Int 10
Wis 14 (18)
Cha 8

1 Deflect Arrows, Crane Style, Power Attack
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Vicious Stomp
5 Crane Wing
6 Improved Trip
7 Crane Riposte
9 Exotic Weapon Proficiency : whip
10 Medusa's Wrath

belt of physical perfection +2
headband of wisdom +4
monks robe
amulet of natural armour +3
ring of protection +2
bracers of armour +4

armour class...
10
3 monk
3 dex
4 wis
4 armour
3 natural armour
2 deflection


AC 29, 32 with crane style. Touch AC 22/25.
Damage will typically be 2d6 + 6 + 6 (power attack).
Saves will be +8/+10/+9 with improved evasion
Attacks will typically be +13/+13/+8/+8
Another two +13/+13 attacks against a stunned or staggered target only
4 AoOs, which you will probably get the majority of every round, AoO will be at +12 BAB, or +15 CMB
10 stunning fists, DC 20


I'm pretty sure he'd be competent enough to fit in with our current party's melee types.