why on earth does the bard only get 4 skill points/lvl???

[Trousers]

Droogie: you know I would agree that it was overkill if....

* bardic music did anything beyond 9th level (12 ranks)...

* I like the new bardic musics in 2E, than in 3E. But they still are really defensive and subtle.

* the bardic spells weren't so dumbed down. 2e allowed bards to be a decent back up on spell-casting, both offensive and defensive. 3E is almost all defensive.

That's my argument for 6 sp not being overkill.

And *sheepish grin* I play a bard too

I'm about to try out some alternate rules I've drafted up... provided my DM buys in. I mean bards REALLY got the shaft on PrC's also....

 

[hong]

Re: More like Master of One...

Now we're down to 1-2 sp, and the RgrMnk still have 4. Via cross-classing it would be quite easy for a Rgr/Mnk to match or even "out-bard" the bard.

1) I'm having a hard time visualising a ranger/monk. Maybe such a character could use some of the stranger attacks in YB.

2) Comparing discretionary skill spending on one hand with overall skill spending on the other is silly.

3) Multiclassing for skills is a bad idea unless there's a good match in the class skills for each class.

There are a lot of great things about the 3E bard class, but there a few very big holes like this that really degrade the bard's purpose -- and chance for survival -- in a good D&D game.

Agree/disagree?

The bard has the potential to shine in lots of areas. Different bards will choose different areas to shine in. Some will be performers, some will be loremasters, others will be spellweavers.

 

[Willtell]

Yep, Bards get 6 skill points IMC and in another that one in my group started. I have no problems with the Rogue having 8 skill points but the Bard is supposed to be the 'Jack-all-trades' character and with all those class skill 4 just does not seem enough so we up them in my group.

Bards are surposed to be the 'Jack of all trades - and the master or none!'.

 

[Negative Zero]

*UGH* boy did htey ever! plus none of the PrCs never mention that lvls in them count towards Bardic Knowledge! major oversight, i think. i'd like to take a look at your changes if you don't mind Trousers. if you don't feel like posting them here, drop me an email. (for some reason i can't get into the one that's tied to this profile, so use dondredd@hotmail.com if you like.)

thanks
~NegZ

WOOOHOOOO
100 posts!!!
*does the scooby dance*
*catches himself*
*looks around*
nobody saw that ... right?

 

[Trousers]

Hong: sorry...

a) misunderstanding on the Rgr - Mnk thing. I didn't mean a multiclass Rgr/Mnk. I meant individually a Rgr OR a Mnk could out-bard a bard with skill points. I agree that multiclassing for sp is a bad idea as it destroys good roleplaying.

given that do you still agree/disagree?

b) i also agree that some specialization is nice with the bard, but centering ALL bardic music and spellcasting really shortchanges the versatility of a brd who can be a jack of all trades master of none.

besides how useful is a bard going to be with one-two skill points in every skill?

 

[hong]

b) i also agree that some specialization is nice with the bard, but centering ALL bardic music and spellcasting really shortchanges the versatility of a brd who can be a jack of all trades master of none.

besides how useful is a bard going to be with one-two skill points in every skill?

Not very, which is why a good bard will select a schtick and max it out.

A bard doesn't _need_ Concentration or Spellcraft to be good at spellcasting. These are useful in some situations, but certainly not always. The only bardic ability that absolutely depends on skill is the bardsong thing, which uses Perform. Couple that with the fact that just about every bard will have high Int, and that leaves quite a few skill points to spend.

 

[Staffan]

Re: More like Master of One...

A ranger, monk, and bard all have 4 sp. But if the bard wants to cast spells and use bardic music, Perform is an absolute must.

Agreed on the necessity of Perform.

Furthermore if he wants to be a half-decent spell caster, concentration is a must... spellcraft a maybe...

Concentration is generally only necessary if you're going to be casting in melee. Also, the bard will tend to have slightly lower DCs for Concentration checks, because he's casting lower-level spells. Spellcraft is mainly useful for counterspelling (which I don't think a bard will be doing all that often) and for learning new spells (which a bard doesn't need to do). No need to max out these two.

Now we're down to 1-2 sp, and the RgrMnk still have 4. Via cross-classing it would be quite easy for a Rgr/Mnk to match or even "out-bard" the bard.

I'd call it 2 or 3 myself - the bard can get by with half the maximum value in Concentration and Spellcraft, I think. The ranger needs Wilderness Lore as much as the bard needs Perform, and Hide, Move Silently, Spot and Listen at least as much as the bard needs Spellcraft and Concentration. The monk doesn't have any "must-have" skills in the same way, except maybe Tumble - plenty of "nice to have" skills, but none that define the class in the same way.

 

[Negative Zero]

this is all true Staffan, but it still doesn't change the fact that the actual number of class skills that these other classes have doesn't compare in the LEAST to the number the bard has.

 

[reapersaurus]

The Bard has many special abilties that can be more effective in other ways than the Rogue special abilities.

God, people sure do overlook the abilities of the rogue sometimes.

So weak spells and effects that really only enhance other party members, along with a DM-controlled method of giving info to his party (Bardic Knowledge) is suddenly of greater use than Sneak Attack, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and the ton of skill points?

BTW, I agree that it's silly that the bard only gets 4 skills/level.
At the VERY least, Bards should get a free rank in Perform each level...

 

[hong]

this is all true Staffan, but it still doesn't change the fact that the actual number of class skills that these other classes have doesn't compare in the LEAST to the number the bard has.

So?