why on earth does the bard only get 4 skill points/lvl???

[der_kluge]

Huh? Bards with spellbooks?

Well, yes, if you're gonna use wizard casting. The fact that Bard's can't continue to learn new spells doesn't make any sense. If you really wanted to spice it up, remove the "spells known" chart, and let them learn spells indefinitely (from their current spell list) and cast them as their current chart. That'd make them a heck of a lot more useful.

 

[Negative Zero]

... The rogue's niche, however, is almost entirely skill-dependent (opening locks, disabling traps, searching, hiding, spotting, etc).

good point, agreed, the rogue's core abilities are more skill dependent. but core abilities aren't the be all and end all of gaming. you don't powergame a bard, you roleplay a bard. which means using lots of bluff, dilplomacy, intimidate, and the like. which is what i meant when i said they were a skill dependent class.

 

[hong]

Well, yes, if you're gonna use wizard casting. The fact that Bard's can't continue to learn new spells doesn't make any sense.

Of course bards can continue to learn spells. It just requires them to level up, instead of keeping a spellbook.

Think of it this way: while the bard is adventuring and gaining XP, he's also reading up on arcane lore, learning spellcasting tricks, and so on. It's just subsumed in the "off-stage" stuff that characters are always doing. When he goes up a level, he's also assumed to have accumulated enough knowledge to be able to cast a couple more spells that he's come across during his travels. It isn't that hard to come up with a suitable rationale for a limited spell list.

If you really wanted to spice it up, remove the "spells known" chart, and let them learn spells indefinitely (from their current spell list) and cast them as their current chart. That'd make them a heck of a lot more useful.

Spontaneous casting _and_ an unlimited spell list would be very useful, yes. It would also be remarkably bad for game balance.

 

[Zerovoid]

I house ruled the bard to 6 skill points and have no problem with it. I still think they lack distinction, and I would have liked the core class to have some more interesting spellcasting abilities, but it seems balanced this way.

I think people who say 6 skill points is edging in on the rogue's territory are vastly underestimating the utility of sneak attack and evasion. Even if he buff's himself, a bard will never be near as good at combat as a rogue can be.

I wouldn't increase the skill points of any other class though. If you give rangers 6 skill points, they will get everything they possibly want. Same with giving a cleric or fighter 4. If the bard has 6 skill points, they still do not come close to having everything a player would want, and they are still less skilled than a rogue. This seems about right for me. If anyone wants more than that, they can put a 12 or 14 intelligence.

 

[der_kluge]

Of course bards can continue to learn spells. It just requires them to level up, instead of keeping a spellbook.

If I am 5th, and level up to 6th, I can not learn more 1st level spells. I can't learn a new 1st level spell for the next ten levels!

So, at level 5 a Bard knows 4 1st level spells. If I travel with a wizard that constantly casts magic missile, and I don't have that spell, I can't add it to my spell list - UNTIL LEVEL 16!! Tell me how that makes sense.

Spontaneous casting _and_ an unlimited spell list would be very useful, yes. It would also be remarkably bad for game balance.

Hardly - at first level, I'd get one spell to cast per day, and that's only if I have a charisma of 12 or higher (which I'd hope to have anyway, but still).

At 20th level, the Bard gets 4/4/4/4/4/4 spells per day. Considering the fact that someone already mentioned that the Bard's musical ability basically degenerates into nothingness after about level 9, all the Bard has left is spellcasting. Being a utilitarian would actually make the class useful to a party, and more enjoyable. You could come up with some kind of mechanic which dictated how many overall spells the Bard knew. Maybe one or two per level+Int modifier. That would be fair.

Yep. I like it. Useful.

 

[hong]

If I am 5th, and level up to 6th, I can not learn more 1st level spells. I can't learn a new 1st level spell for the next ten levels!

So, at level 5 a Bard knows 4 1st level spells. If I travel with a wizard that constantly casts magic missile, and I don't have that spell, I can't add it to my spell list - UNTIL LEVEL 16!! Tell me how that makes sense.

So use one of your 2nd level slots to learn it (not strictly kosher by the books, but only the most stingy DM would disallow it), or take the Extra Slot feat from T&B. Or just accept that learning that particular spell is simply beyond your capabilities.

There are plenty of ways to deal with this issue of a limited spell list. Some of them surmount it, others handwave it away. Magic is magic; it's ultimately unexplainable. There are lots of holes in any magic system, if you look deep enough.

 

[Trousers]

Our new forum on how to improve the bard

Bardic music seemed to be the great ability from letting bards just be a "generalist". And then someone fell asleep at the wheel by stopping at Inspire Greatness....

The spell selection really does leave alot to be desired. Getting cures was really great, but losing 90% of the damage spells hurt.

So yes, you can research new spells but how do you do it? Through the SPELLCRAFT skill! (see Tome and Blood) And what do you need to use Spell craft well! Skill points!

Full circle again...

 

[reapersaurus]

lots of people are bemoaning the fact that Perform stops after 12 ranks, but I haven't heard any suggestions to fix it.

So here's a page that I collected variant musical bard abilities: http://65.105.234.197/jwarner/bard.htm

Also, noone has mentioned Monte's alternate bard from BOEM II.

It seemed VERY full of flavor, and musical-dependant abilities...

 

[The Sigil]

Warning - Shameless Plug!

lots of people are bemoaning the fact that Perform stops after 12 ranks, but I haven't heard any suggestions to fix it.

Warning! Shameless plug...

If you're down on the Bard's Music Abilities, you might seriously consider my humble little PDF publication, the Enchiridion of Mystic Music (available exclusively at http://www.RPGNow.com )... 70+ pages for $5.

Instead of 6 abilities (as the bard currently sits), this book presents 84 (there is a very modest cost to the bard to learn the new ones, but that should be expected for game balance). In fact, every Rank of Perform from 3 to 23 has four (count 'em, four) associated abilities in this book. You also get a set of Feats for upping them and six prestige classes - five of them stack with the bard as far as music ability (the 6th is kind of an anti-bard - the class is to bard as blackguard is to paladin - and so is rather anti-music ability).

Check out http://www.cooleys.org/publishing/ - a modest little site to be sure, but you can have a gander at the Table of Contents for free (check out the Downloads link).

Also, noone has mentioned Monte's alternate bard from BOEM II.

It seemed VERY full of flavor, and musical-dependant abilities...

I liked the variation Monte's bard brought. I wasn't as big of a fan of the fact that if I'm already playing a bard and want to use Monte's, I basically have to throw out my existing bard and start from scratch. The Enchiridion of Mystic Music is TOTALLY modular - your existing bard does not need to be modified one little fig in order to gain a benefit from it.

Myself, if I'm creating a new bard, I'll probably look to try Monte's. If I have an existing bard, I'll go with EoMM. But then, you probably expect that from me, since I wrote it.

Sorry 'bout all that. Shameless plug over.

Anyway, that PDF was my solution to the "broken" bard. I think the skill points are fine, the spellcasting is fine, the bardic knowledge is fine, but he just needed a little more spice in the music abilities (okay a LOT more spice)... but he *CAN* get that with the right publications.

--Spencer "The Sigil" Cooley
S.T. Cooley Publishing

 

[Negative Zero]

actually reaper, the reason that no one's brought up the MC bard is probly me saying "i know that Monte's bard gets 6/lvl (i think), but it's also a whole different bard. so barring that ..." when i started the thread. i'm about to play a PHB bard and i was looking for opinions on that specific one.

i haven't gone over the MC bard in detail myself, but lots of trusted people i know have and they all agree that it's a very good take on the class. but since the DM is a first-timer, i didn't want to saddle him with too much new stuff. hence my request to keep the thread off that.

thanks much for the link! at first perusal, there seems some really nice ideas on there. i'll be sure to go over it in more detail ... just as soon as i can rustle up some more coherence, come the morning

~NegZ