Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Marcus Smythe]

That IS the unbalanced part of the class. The Psionic characters can dump far too much PP in a combat. Once that happens the character will either have very little to do or will attempt to get the party to rest. It is at that point the DM either.

Allows the Psion to be overpowered and allows the group to rest.

Risks being seen as the "Bad Guy" when the foes press the attack against the resting PCs.

A limitation of a psionic character from spending more than X PP per minute might help the situation. A nice migraine headache [mental stat damage] would be about right and right in the flavor of the psycic abilities.

See, I dont think this is a situation that requires external management. The psion who blows all his PsPs early on deserves what he gets as a commoner-with-will-save later in the day. The party who stops and rests just because the psion cant manage his PsPs is the party that teleports home when the mage runs low on spells.. said mage also being able to go crazy-nuts pretty easily. (Quicken, Time-Stop, Metamagic Rods, etc. etc. etc.)

While the Psion may present a more extreme instance of resource management, hes hardly the only instance, and I think the same solutions that have long worked for other casters applies here, too.

 

[Nail]

Perhaps I was insufficiently clear. It is certainly the kid that people have limited experience with in 3.5....

Hmmmmmm. I doubt it. (shrug)

Check out all of the other "magic users" put out since 3.5e: warlock, warmage, binder, soulborn,....etc. Not to mention all of the PrCs.

I suspect that people have lots of experience with psionics, in comparison. I know I do.....although in my case, the latest example of a psion PC was played by a very good player. He mopped the floor with the competition.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

And were the psion being compared to the things you named, that would be applicable.

 

[Nail]

Errr?

Claim: Psions are disliked because people have limited experience with them in 3.5e.

Counter-argument: Classes with even less time "in the mix" that are also "magic users" have not run into nearly as much trouble. (Hence my examples.)

 

[IcyCool]

While Even this is balanced out with the number of powers/Spells each knows. And yes this is a MASSIVE balancing factor. Where as a Wizard knows possibly unlimited power, and sorcerer knows 53 spells. A Psion knows 36 powers, and a Wilder knows 11. I am truly sorry but if you can’t see the impact this has on class balance well then I don’t think you truly understand how caster classes work.

Of course, those wizards and sorcerers need to take 4 spells to match the Psions 1 power... (Not for every power, but a non-trivial number of them).

Specifically you mentioned the Astral Construct power. Well have you actually read what it does? Ok I agree it is a bit high on the stats for their challenge rating, but that is comparing them to what? I mean there are equally more powerful monsters with the same if not lower challenge rating.

Astral Construct is compared to Summon Monster. Astral Constructs have better AC, attacks, and perhaps the biggest advantage is that they can't be hedged out by the protection from evil and magic circle against evil spells. It's like Summon Monster, but better in every way.

And the limit of only one or two if you spend alot of time in a prestige class it’s a big check for the abuse of this power. While the only powers I can think of that are really powerful well they have magical counterparts that do the EXACT same thing. So if you’re trying to say that these overpower full powers are too powerful cause they mirror magical abilities well…that’s a mute point no?

What's the magical counterpart of Schism? Fission? Astral Construct? Timeless Body?

As for Psions having high damage potential…this is a joke right? I mean its such a blatant lie that it seriously makes me wonder if we are all talking about the same Psionics. It is numerically impossible (as long as you follow the rules), that a Psion dishes out more potentially damaging powers then a Wiz or Sorcerer.

A wizard (barring much time, xp, and money spent creating fragile simulacrum) can blast off 2 spells a round. A sorcerer can do that once per day with the sudden quicken feat. A Psion can blast off 4 (6, if he's an Elan) or more in a single round (not counting swift or quickened powers).

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Errr?

Claim: Psions are disliked because people have limited experience with them in 3.5e.

Counter-argument: Classes with even less time "in the mix" that are also "magic users" have not run into nearly as much trouble. (Hence my examples.)

Statement: GMs and players have less experience with Psionics than with Arcane magic, and are therefore less comfortable with them and more likely to be troubled by what they can do.

I've never even seen the 'less time in mix' classes played, so I have no idea what problems they have created.. though I do remember an initial SCREAM at the release of the Warlock (Unlimited Spells! Broken!). Then people got comfortable with it.

Final Note: Of all the new kids on the block (with which my experience is admittedly VERY limited), Psionics seems to be the only one that even approaches the holy duo (Arcane and Divine) in power. Lets face it. Warlocks are cute, and fun, but casters they aint, in terms of in-game dynamics and power. Truenaming stinks on ice. I doubt any of the 'new systems' can manage the basic-I-win button that is Timestop and a stack of Gates.

 

[tomBitonti]

Encounter style issue

Hi,

We've found, running with psionics, that in a single encounter, the psionicists shine.
But! Only within that single encounter, where they are able to burn through their powers
very quickly to great effect.

The psionicist has a *total* damage dealing capability that is much less than the sorcerer.
If there are multiple encounters, leading up to a nasty fight at the end, then it's much harder
for the psionicists. They have to be very careful to conserve power points between ncounters. And, in the end, they run out sooner than the sorcerer.

 

[Nail]

@ Marcus: Agreed. (Although the Gates tactic is not clear-cut, BTW. Not only does it cost significant XP, but the "commanded" text indicates communication, which is not possible within a Timestop.)

As for the Warlock, I think that's a excellent example to compare with psions vis-a-vis new "magic users". The "introduction" phase of public commentary was identical, but after some time for serious analysis after a relatively short time, it became clear the warlock was not over-powered.

....Whereas for the psion, the argument still rages. That, in and of itself, tells us something significant.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Edited due to DP

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Of course, those wizards and sorcerers need to take 4 spells to match the Psions 1 power... (Not for every power, but a non-trivial number of them).



Astral Construct is compared to Summon Monster. Astral Constructs have better AC, attacks, and perhaps the biggest advantage is that they can't be hedged out by the protection from evil and magic circle against evil spells. It's like Summon Monster, but better in every way.



What's the magical counterpart of Schism? Fission? Astral Construct? Timeless Body?



A wizard (barring much time, xp, and money spent creating fragile simulacrum) can blast off 2 spells a round. A sorcerer can do that once per day with the sudden quicken feat. A Psion can blast off 4 (6, if he's an Elan) or more in a single round (not counting swift or quickened powers).

1.) True, in more than a few instances a single psionic power can duplicate mutliple spells. Lets face it, would a spontaneous caster with a short powers-knowable list EVER LEARN 4 different powers, one for each elemental reistance? I think not. Limited vs. Unlimited spells known really changes the way you look at things.

2.) Astral Constructs are pretty much bruisers. Summons are mutlitools. And you can only have one Astral Construct at a time, post Complete Psionic. Different != Better

3.) Whats the psionic counterpart to Chain Contingency? Mordenkainens Disjunction? Orb of Force? Gate? Invisibility? And shall we discuss both Flight and Teleport likely costing a feat? The Psionic limited wish comes later, and the psionic Wish is more limited, than the Arcane version (and shouldnt you be bitching about Miracle?) Ottos Irresistable I Win Button? Evards Black AOE I Win Button? Color Spraying I Win Button? Maybe just WEB?

As for the powers named:
Schism: Telepath Only, all others must spend a feet. Equivalent to an extra Quicken every round.. decent for buffs, not so decent for nuking. Great way to burn out in a round.

Fission: Ohh! Another you, only without any magic items? Lifespan <= 1 rnd

Astral Construct: Covered above. Closest parallell is likely Summon Natures Ally, since the Druids do get better bruisers than the Wizards.

Timeless Body: Re-read this power. Though YOUR immune, it aint. Dispel and carry on. Heck, Ill hide under a Primsy Sphere if I want to be stuff-proof.. much harder to knock down than Timeless Body.

4.) The Psions 4 Powers Per Round: Great in theory. Nova builds tend to be low-utility 1-trick ponys that can blow up a game, or themselves, in nothing flat. This is not a psionic unique attribute... but somehow psionics is 'bad' for it, but any other class that does it is just playing D+D? And as for multiple actions in a round...
Chronytron Shapeshift, Timestop, Gate-until-sufficient Solars/Balors/etc. are present to handle ANY situation. And then cast some.
Now theres a nova.