Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[wildstarsreach]

Well I hate to say it but your arguments don’t make any sense to me. While I can understand a bit of frustration about the Psion being a very versatile character, I do not see how that is a “Broken” aspect of Psionics. If anything it is the hallmark of Psionics. The only thing I can think of is maybe a sense of unfairness. While a Wizard is all about the massive preparations a Psion is about going on the fly. That aspect alone would give the Psion an upper hand in most situations, especially when the Wizard didn’t have any knowledge about what he is walking into. But at the same time the Sorcerer can do the same thing to a degree. While Even this is balanced out with the number of powers/Spells each knows. And yes this is a MASSIVE balancing factor. Where as a Wizard knows possibly unlimited power, and sorcerer knows 53 spells. A Psion knows 36 powers, and a Wilder knows 11. I am truly sorry but if you can’t see the impact this has on class balance well then I don’t think you truly understand how caster classes work.

As for Psionic powers being too good…well ok I can concede that there are some powers that ARE really good. But most of there powers are only really effective in a narrow field. While yes there are a number of good buff powers to take keep in mind that if a character stacks up on buff well its more power he wont have for fighting and its less time he will be contributing to the fight other then in the meat shield capacity.

As for certain powers being too good…well I don’t see how. Most of these have Arcane or Divine counterparts and the ones that don’t are again trademark discipline powers that are not really accessible to all Psions or Widers. Specifically you mentioned the Astral Construct power. Well have you actually read what it does? Ok I agree it is a bit high on the stats for their challenge rating, but that is comparing them to what? I mean there are equally more powerful monsters with the same if not lower challenge rating. And the limit of only one or two if you spend alot of time in a prestige class it’s a big check for the abuse of this power. While the only powers I can think of that are really powerful well they have magical counterparts that do the EXACT same thing. So if you’re trying to say that these overpower full powers are too powerful cause they mirror magical abilities well…that’s a mute point no?

Since when are Psionics hard to counter? Well I guess you could argue that since there is no Psionic counter spelling that countering them outright is no possible. But I mean other then those nasty nasty spell components Psionics are subject to the same rules for casters for doing powers. Give them a bit of damage and then its concentrations check time. Not to mention DISPEL, I would have thought that one being obvious.

As for Psions having high damage potential…this is a joke right? I mean its such a blatant lie that it seriously makes me wonder if we are all talking about the same Psionics. It is numerically impossible (as long as you follow the rules), that a Psion dishes out more potentially damaging powers then a Wiz or Sorcerer. Arcane or even Divine caster have a massive monopoly on high damage effects. I am not sure where this idea came from but wherever that was, it was clearly from Someone who was not fully informed. The Exact same can be said for those who think Metapsionic feats are too powerful. Most if not all are direct copies from magical version and even then only one can be used at a time with the exception of using ONE feat on ONE power. This says nothing about Psionic Focus, which makes it near impossible for some one to do more then one or two Metapsionic powers in an entire fight.

Wildstarsearch I hate to say it but your 17th level character is maybe just a bit underpowered. Epic character non withstanding, characters in their High levels are well, the best there are. I mean They are meant to do thing like this. In fact I think I would be very disappointed in my character didn’t do stuff like that at such high levels. Such things are normal.

Thanee my hat is off to you. You have maybe hit in my mind the one reason that Psionics might be considered to be unbalance. The bundling of similar powers in one. While sometimes this is just a simple augmentation for more targets. But often as is the case with Dominate it’s the grouping of whole families of powers into one power with a stiff augmentation to get different results. While I can really understand why this can be considered unbalanced at the same time it only makes sense. With the way augmentation works, I think these powers would be “Broken” if they were not augmentable in these ways.

Valor

Before I comment on Valor, there is a comment that you couldn't metapsionic 2 feats into one power short of epic. With the feat psicrystal containment, your psicrystal has a focus and your own focus could be spent to use 2 feats. If you've taken Psionic Meditation, then as a move action instead of full round, you have a focus to use a metapsionic feat every round if you don't have to move more than 5'.

If you take any of the energy powers, this is effectively equivalent to 4 spells each time. Yes the Socerer and Wizard have more but you bang for the buck is a lot higher. A 4th level power Energy Adaptation, in one single casting is equal to 5 3rd level spells cast by a cleric.

Let me say this Valor, if as the rules stand, you were required to only play one class for the next year, what would you choose:

1: Wizard
2: Cleric
3: Sorcerer
4: Psion

Me, I'd choose the Psion. The rules as they stand favor this class. You don't think that they are broken. Fine, I accept that. That doesn't preclude that you are possibly wrong. I would like to see a way make this anti-psionic hatred to die down and if you can't see that this system is abusive and needs some scaling back to balance equitably against other classes, I don't know what to do.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I'm confused. If you're spending 50% plus of your PP, how are you keeping up for the 3-5 encounters you said your DM throws at you? And how are you putting 17pp into Vigor? As a 17th level Cerebremancer your highest ML should be 14. If you're using Overchannel are you taking into account the Xd8 damage you should be taking every time you use it? You may want to double check all your abilities to make sure what you're doing is legal. Pay very close attention to you manifester level.

And in general, this tactic is reffered to as 'going nova' and stems from a pushover DM. If you are able to regularly do this your DM isn't enforcing those 3-5 encounters. You need to voluntarily stop metagaming and softcap your PP expenditure at 20% (+10% for every CR the encounter is above your level) per encounter. A swift M's Disjunction will also deflate your character. There are also tactics such as; false encounters (illusions), an ambush where you are the first target, and throwing enough minions at you before hand so that you don't have 50% of your PP by the time you get to the boss. Heck, an evil cleric with Antimagic Field could woop your booty.

The problems you're having are something I've seen and delt with dozens of times. They stem from two things. The first is Temporal Acceleration. DM's who cant challenge there players with multiple encounters fall like kobolds to TA. Remove that power from your character and see how things work out. The second is that your DM is a complete and total noob. He doesn't dispel you. He doesn't ambush you. He doesn't target casters first. Has he ever used a save-or-die effect on you (you seem to be begging for a Finger of Death). I've seen mobs in DDO with better tactics then him. Whoever is DMing needs to brush up on the rules more before they try running high level games.

Oh, and could you please post all of your feats (and your discipline)? This post is begining to gain a familiar odor to it. A regular on the WotC Psionics forums loves to post problems such as this, but when you ask him to actually give you the character he refuses (because if you build it yourself you find it has somewhere around 20+feats). While your at it, could we get a list of your magic/psionic items as well?


And about Psionic damage being so overpowered due to versatility, I have to ask, is direct damage really that big of a problem at higher levels? When your group cleric could be casting Implosion I really don't see how 17d6+17 energy damage is a big deal.

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Practiced Spell caster, Dragon Prophesier, Prophesy’s Hero, Practiced Manifester

Telepath

Magic items other than a +6 Headband of Intellect and a Psionatrix of Telepathy are not relevant to the class.

The above is a representation of only one battle in which we had just rested. Typically only the first round is necessary. The character would be worse with the feats I suggested of maximize and or empower.

Most people here aren't seeing the problem because they are being too involved with it. I see because as a veteran gamer of almost 30 years and a 44 year old player, that playing this game isn't just about me but a bunch of friends getting together and enjoying an adventure. Unfortunately I do my best at surviving and sometimes it shows with the class having more than it should have. The class isn't balance equitably versus other classes.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Let's change this. For those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree. I'm wanting a discussion of those who think that there is a problem and what can we do to fix it. I want to see solutions. Telling me I'm wrong or don't understand the system is not why I posted. Telling me that my DM isn't doing his job is insulting. He does do a good job and entaining us all. I'm not looking for the status quo.

 

[Someone]

The solution I see is pretty simple: ask your DM to allow you to retrain Schism and Temporal Acceleration for other powers of the same level (and don´t take them again).

I can´t comment on the Prophecy feat, since I don´t know what it does, but I´ve heard it´s quite powerful too.

3.0 Haste was nerfed for a good reason, and it was a mistake to reintroduce powers that grant extra action. Almost all the "psionics are broken" complains I´ve heard end or include those.

 

[wildstarsreach]

The solution I see is pretty simple: ask your DM to allow you to retrain Schism and Temporal Acceleration for other powers of the same level (and don´t take them again).

I can´t comment on the Prophecy feat, since I don´t know what it does, but I´ve heard it´s quite powerful too.

3.0 Haste was nerfed for a good reason, and it was a mistake to reintroduce powers that grant extra action. Almost all the "psionics are broken" complains I´ve heard end or include those.

Thanks, I'll talk to him about that.

 

[kelvinaw273]

Let's change this. For those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree. I'm wanting a discussion of those who think that there is a problem and what can we do to fix it. I want to see solutions. Telling me I'm wrong or don't understand the system is not why I posted. Telling me that my DM isn't doing his job is insulting. He does do a good job and entaining us all. I'm not looking for the status quo.

Why?

You have voiced an opinion based on certain assumtions. You have asked for comments on your opinion, and some have chosen to point out that they think your initial assumtions are wrong, and why. You have the basis of the cut and thrust of debate here - to then say: "I don't want to hear from anyone who disagrees with me any more" is silly. You may as well say: "I'm wrong but I don't want to have wasted all my effort in re-writing powers so I won't admit it" - at least, that is how it will be interpretted by your detractors.

I've explained why I think you are wrong in your assumtions. Please feel free to counter my arguments, but don't tell me to shut up because you don't want to hear it. That just insults my intelligence and belittles your position.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

While I'm a bit uncomfortable with the 'No dissention will be allowed' bit...

"What to do to fix it"

Well, some points:
1.) Above poster is correct. Extra Actions are 'tempo'. Even if not used for direct offense, the ability of extra actions to remove the opportunity cost from buffs and summons is huge.. most buff spells with durations under 1hr/lvl are to some degree balanced by the fact that one either spends precious in-combat rounds casting them, or has to expend the out-of-combat time, effort, and resources to arrange an ambush. (Save us all from Scry-and-die)
Eliminate your characters ability to gain extra actions, and alot of the problem goes away. Psionics is notable for gaining this ability earlier than Arcane Magic (Temporal Acceleration, while IMHO inferior even when augmented, occurs earlier than wish Time Stop)

2.) Singing Synergy, Batman! The practiced manifester cerebramancer youve got going there is interesting to me. While classically Ive been somewhat underwhelmed by the double-progression classes (I find giving up higher level spells for scads of lower ones in mulitple areas, coupled with frequent MAD... barring things like Sorc/Favoured Soul... is not a winning combination), you seem to have hit (perhaps unintentionally) on a gem. By having all of the utility/flexibility/defense of a mages spell list on the left hand, you allow your psion 'right hand' to go crazy-nuts with pure blasting, without ever bleeding off its PsPs over the course of the day to handle all those utility and defensive applications.

3.) IJNTFU (It's Just Not That Freakin Uber). With a good feat selection, a good power selection, and some reasonable care, it looks like youve simply built a better more combat effective character than your companions. This is always an issue in D+D, espc v. 3.0 and higher. Ive played perfectly good D+D games with the 'My 12th lvl Barbarian should be TOUGH, so I'm taking Toughness.... wee... 3 more HP on top of 150...', and perfectly good D+D games that featured a Fighter/Mage Gish polymorphed into a Hydra and wielding 15 mouth-pick swords (did I mention he had the whole multi-weapon-fighting chain?). And of course, there is always CoDzilla.....
So find a happy place where your character is something you want to play, and your fellow party members are getting their share of the limelight. High-powered and low-powered choices in D+D arent 'better' or 'worse'.. their just different, and the GM and players are all well served to know what various players are going to be bringing to the table as far as character creation. I think that would solve your problem.

In the alternate, one could simply rework your fellow party members up to your level of performance... your 'See what I can do, aint it broken'... aint broken. Your 17th lvl. That doesnt begin to be 'broken', especially considering what it costs you. By my lights, your 'about right'.... definitely going to out perform a pure fighter (barring decent splatbooking), but definitley not going to outperform anything short of an incompetent druid build of that level, not to mention a serious, tuned CoDzilla (Heck, even core+complete alone!). That said, redesigning the rest of your party UP rather than you DOWN would change more characters, and change the nature of the game more.. so maybe just drop Schism, Temporal Acceleration, and Practiced Manifester. Get some item creation feats and spend your XPs to make your friends cooler.
If you want out of the spotlight, you can get there. Psionics didnt take you there, you did.

 

[Valor]

Wildstarsearch I feel from your response that you are under the impression that we are getting a bit harsh. After looking over my recent post I think you are probably right. I apologize, it was not my intention. I very much do not want to inflame anti Psionic hatred.

About the Metapsionic feats. You’re right I had completely forgotten about the Psionic focus helled by the psi crystal. Since none of my characters I DM for use one nor myself when I play uses one, the idea of them had sloped my mind. Bu yes you are right this is a way to possibly use more then one Metapsionic feat at the same time or to use them in a following consecutive round. The only way I thought it worked was with the Metapower feat from Complete Psionic. But manifesting most (not all), powers is a full round action, and I am almost sure that manifesting Metapsionic powers is always a full round action (except of the Quickened feat). Since getting your Psionic focus back is at least a move action, it is very hard to keep blasting away with Metapsionic feats

If I had to play a class for a long time I would chose Psion. As I have done since the XPH came out. I find the class to be very enjoyable and I continue to play Psions (mind you I choose different disciplines from time to time).

It does look like we will just have to agree to disagree. While I don’t believe Psionics is unbalanced, especially when taken into consideration with magic. I do think that it does need some refinement that I have found it to be lacking. While I love the overall flavor and mechanics of the Psionics system, there are parts or it, that seemed to have been really good ideas that were either rushed through to be finished for a deadline or that were never finished at all. I do have a question though. When you say that Psionics (an abusive system) needs to be scaled back to balance with other classes. Do you mean all classes or just the Wizard classes and its Prestige classes? I have always found, especially at higher levels that caster classes of all kinds will outdo the other classes by a lot in many aspects of the game. So I am very curious as to what you want to have it balanced to.

I am very confused over many of the aspects of your posts Wildstarsearch. You gave a very detailed example of how your character acts in battle and said it was overpowered. Tikiman hit it right on the nose. If you are not facing the proper number of challenges in you campaign then take that into account and realize that most caster classes will be way way too powerful and ban them all. These classes and concepts were tested at length by WotC and they found them to be acceptable. If your campaign doesn’t want to go by the same standards that they were meant to be used and tested in…well how it is that its the concepts that are broken and not the that the style of play makes them broken? Tikiman even had solutions for you as a player and ideas to take to your DM. And you shut him down for it. Why? I figure as (I am assuming) adult D&D players of many years we have enough maturity to have nice civilized talks about something we all have in common and all seem to really enjoy. Heck I have a hard enough time finding people who don’t look at me funny if I tell them I am into D&D that its is very depressing and cruel to be so dismissed and treated in such a way by my comrades in my beloved hobby.

Many people see the problem and a lot of them find your discussions have a lot of merit. Myself included. While I enjoy Psionics a great deal I am always open to the idea that they can be improved in a number of fashions.

As a 44 years old player how can you go “nova” then decide that there is a problem with the system because you did something you know that you probably shouldn’t have done. Sure most caster class characters can go Nova, but it defeats the purpose of playing the game. As a DM I tell me players that I know that being experienced players that they know how to go “nova” but that they shouldn’t cause it can ruin the game in so many ways. As for cutting out all those who don’t believe the exact same as you. How do you expect to get a proper discussion with only like minded people? While simply telling you that you’re wrong is well…wrong, if they give a detailed and logical explanation then how can you shut them out for it?


Lastly, being that you said it yourself. A 44 year old gamer(that’s rocks by the way) that has been playing for 30 years, a veteran by all accounts. That playing the game is not about you and your buddies getting together and enjoying the adventure. Then what in hell are you playing for?


Valor

 

[wildstarsreach]

Let's change this. For those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree. I'm wanting a discussion of those who think that there is a problem and what can we do to fix it. I want to see solutions. Telling me I'm wrong or don't understand the system is not why I posted. Telling me that my DM isn't doing his job is insulting. He does do a good job and entaining us all. I'm not looking for the status quo.

I don't mind a discussion but when people tell me that I'm flat out wrong or that I don't understand the system or that my DM doesn't do a good job tends to be insulting. Many of you decide that you are going to blundgeon me with a sledge hammer to see that the status quo is correct. That is what I want to avoid.

I am coming to the end of one campaign in which 3 to 4 times a session I get comments from the other 2 players who will be DM's "And psionics aren't broken?". They aren't allowing psionics in their campaigns. I needed discussions on how to scale back so that they might allow them.

You may not think that psionics is broken but that doesn't make the vast majority of DM's and other players from not allowing them. I have in 14 months learned very well how to utilize the character I have to great effect.

 

[Aaron L]

The vast majority of DMs dont allow psionics?

Really?

Too bad for them.