Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Suldarr'essalar]

:|

Psions are too flexible

Psionics are too good because they can spend their power points the way they want. If they need to manifest may high level powers, they can. If low level utility powers are needed, they can manifest them until the moon turns blue.

Where's the problem? Take sorcerer for instance: He can do mostly the same, since his lower level spell slots will deal more damage (overall sorcerer has greater damage potential than psions). It's just another approach to flexibility. Whilst Sorcerer can use higher level spell slots for maxing damage, he still has lower level spell slots for extra damage, or utility powers, whereas psions don't. With augmenting powers you effectively use higher level slots to get the same effect as wizards/sorcerers using lower level slots.
[irony]That's broken. Wizards and sorcerers should use higher level spell slots to get more damage! [/irony]


Their damage-dealing powers can deal whatever energy is needed, cherry picking the target´s vulnerabilities.

With scaling, many low level powers (like astral construct or psionic dominate) become defacto high level powers, greatly increasing flexibility and, in practice, number of powers known.

True, but on the other side psions know less powers than sorcerer spells. Not to mention Wilder with only 11 power known at 20th level.

They can apply metapsionics without hindrance except the psionic focus thing: and you can work around that with the right feats.

That's a lie. You need to refocus which takes an action (either full-round, or (blowing a feat) a move action, and requires concentration check; provokes AoO). Furthermore, without another 2 feats you cannot use 2 metapsionic feats the same round (anf if you do, you must refocus twice). There's also no instant metapsionics.
Some of you say that a sorcerer/wizard must take 3 feats to get rid of components (still spell, silent spell, enshaw materials), psions must take 3 feats to use metapsionics (which is more important than lack of components overall) equally well (psionic meditation, psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment). The only adventage of this is that psions can manifest quicken power (whilst sorcerers can't).

Psionic powers are too good

Astral Construct is noticeably better than equivalent monsters or natural allys; energy misile is much better than any arcane damage dealing spell... the list goes on.

Have you checked Complete Psionics?

Psions are hard to counter and defeat

Psions laugh at conditions that make casting difficult, like being silenced, restrained or being naked and without equipment. Even the dreded grapple becomes a nuisance when your Concentration score is high enough. There´s no condition that impedes manifesting that also don´t restrain spellcasting.

The same goes for any creature using spell-like abilities.
It is a problem, but can be easily solved. Just like superman, create (or give) some metal (lead?) ability to negate psionics and you're home.

Several powers, like Vigor or Timeless body, make psions very durable and hard to kill compared with the standard wizard.

:\ And you haven't heard of dispel magic/psionics?

Psions have the highest damage potential

Psions have several powers that gran extra manifestations or actions, like Schism, Temporal Acceleration and Fission. Also, their damaging powers deal more damage than any arcane counterpart. Combining those, and using feats that grans extra foci, a Psion is guaranteed to obliterate whatever they face -spending a large amount of power points- in a single round.

Just as if a wizard with one or two prestige classes couldn't do it better :|
Really, the game, and psionic system was designed to have more than one battle each day. That way the player must hold his power and not use nova attacks on the first encounter. It's really that simple.

 

[Thanee]

@Suldarr'essalar: Someone's post was listing what - in his opinion and to the best of his knowledge - *others* have stated about psionics... your replies are kinda... off.

One point:

True, but on the other side psions know less powers than sorcerer spells.

You are kidding right?

Do you truely want to compare knowing a bunch of 0th level spells with knowing two to four times as many powers of the two highest currently available levels?

Also, did you figure in the powers, which include several spells bundled into one?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Since comparing Dispels and Damage dealing powers is not a proper comparison between the classes what do you think would be a proper comparison, between say Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion and Wilder.

Playing a campaign and seeing how much each contributes to the party.

I think that, except perhaps possibly the wilder, each of those are going to get their licks in.

 

[Zimbel16]

The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer. With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence. 250 PP @ 17th level

Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks. If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time. Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.

Let us drop my dice cap suggestion at this time and focus on the biggest problem, "The versitility". With all the energy power you can choose at manifestation any one of 4 powers that have advantages versus the spellcaster. You can with a 4th level power defend against 5 types of powers simultaneously where the spell caster would have to cast 5 3rd level spells just to be equal in defense.

Typical combat
Rd 1: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 1-1: Schism
Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
Rd 1 action, cast Mirror image 39 PP expended
Rd 2: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 2-1: Dragon prophecy full round
Sun rd 2-2: Energy adaptation
Rd 2 action, cast Stoneskin
Rd 2 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 30 PP expended
Rd 3: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 3-1: Inertial Armor to max
Sub rd 3-2: Force screen to max
Rd 3 action, Finger of death
Rd 3 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 57 PP expended
Rd 4: Do whatever helps the party most

By this time the fighters are hurt but my psion is fresh and buffed. He has a temporary action point (Eberron game) to help hit any target that he may not have hit, AC is 33, the creature if the get into melee will miss fairly often and plenty of temporary hit points to soak up damage.

126 PP expended and the character is protected and putting out quite abit of damage to help the party and will give out a lot more in round 4-6, Very few combats against even the toughest monsters go longer than that.

To me, the problem above is obvious: your PC is getting up to 4 actions a round, whereas the rest of the party is (presumably) getting around 1 per round. Of course your spellcaster will dominate in this sort of scenario; your PC should be around as powerful as any 3 or so party members for as long as you can keep this combo up.

My suggestion would be to attack the problem at its root; limit the number of actions. There are three ways in which you gain actions:

Temporal acceleration
Quicken
Schism

I think that the easiest solution is to ban Temporal Acceleration (its the worst offender), and take a different power, then see how your PC pans out. I suspect that you'll get less grumbling from the other players. If that isn't sufficient, ban Schism as well.

 

[Nail]

Have you checked Complete Psionics?

Perhaps you should read over someone's post again. It was meant as a condensation of all of the points that go under the rubrick "The arguments I´ve heard for 'Psionics are broken'".

I doubt someone's post was meant to include ancilary WotC materials, nor was it meant to be an exhaustive list.

 

[Psion]

Also, did you figure in the powers, which include several spells bundled into one?

Contrariwise, did you NOT figure in spells that bundle in several powers, like Telekinesis?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

You skipped the Warlock when you were discussing damage-per-day.

10th level Warlock has a 5d6 Eldritch Blast.

5d6/round*10rounds/minute*60minutes/hour*24hours/day=72,000d6 damage!

Warlock is broken!!!!

DS

PS: Note that this post was meant in sarcasm.

 

[Drowbane]

Hi well I’d just like to say this is my first post at EN world... (snip)

Howdy, great post... and Welcome to ENworld!

 

[Thanee]

Contrariwise, did you NOT figure in spells that bundle in several powers, like Telekinesis?

Wanna make a list of all spells and all powers which do so?

I would bet, that even with like 10 times (<- pure guess) the amount of spells out there, psionics will easily win that.

And in the end, only the actually chosen spells and powers for any particular Sorcerer and Psion count, of course, and how many 'multi-power' spells will a Sorcerer have? One? Two? For the Psion that might go into the dozen quite easily.

Saying that a Sorcerer knows more spells than a Psion knows powers is like giving one guy ten quarters and another guy five hundred dollar notes and saying the first guy has more money.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Saying that a Sorcerer knows more spells than a Psion knows powers is like giving one guy ten quarters and another guy five hundred dollar notes and saying the first guy has more money.

I wasn't commenting on the known spells thing... I was commenting on the multi-spell/multi-power thing.

I have already come to grips with the fact that the sorcerer is the poor cousin.