Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Marcus Smythe]

A falsifiable hypothesis requires an objective standard of measure, something a non-interested 3rd party could decide was met, or not met.

"About on one power level with" is subjective, and within the general bounds of it, massive quantities of information have been put forth. None of this is apparently sufficient.

What would be? Spare me generalities. Give me exact, objective numbers.

If that seems unfair, I'll point out that I'm not the one claiming that a part of the game system is broken. The burden of proof, my friend, is yours, unless you are comfortable with having the foundation of your arguement be 'because I said so'.

 

[Nifft]

Maybe we could see a breakdown of...

- Access to magic item creation, types of items, and resources to create "situational" items (Wizard or Cleric wins by a long shot, but Sorcerer vs. Psion could be interesting);
- Points of ability damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Points of HP damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Number of save-or-die effects that can be done each day, at high DC, and at moderate DC;
- Available utility effects.

What do you think of that as an objective measure?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Works for me, Nifft.

One thing wed want to nail down early on is what exact books are allowed. While its certainly advantage:Mage the more we restrict it, if we dont, the outcome is going to be some nutso creation that would never appear in a game.

I personally suggest core+complete.

Potential Extra Categories:
Party Buffing
Dealing with Spell-Resistant Baddies (Undead, Golems, high-SR Crowd)
Mobility

All performances must also be judged by a single character.

 

[Tikiman]

The current version (with the Divine Minion template) is actually not legal.

The Divine Minion is just one of several ways to achieve the build. And upon finding the thread (just found a way to search those forums) I see that Divine Minion is iffy because it's very obviously cheese. The legality of it revolves around DM fiat.


I finally (re)found an old post I've been looking for. You can argue until you're blue in the face about game balance, but the only way to really test it is to playtest it right? For good results you need to playtest across multiple tables, campaigns, DMs, and players. This thread is a conglomeration of 30 polls asking people 'what is the most powerful class'. Wizards, by consensus, tie for 2nd place (with clerics and artificers) at 8.6/10. Psions come in third at 8.1. Sorcs come in much lower at 6.4. Does that do anything for you Thanee?

And what's even better is that the other poll in the thread asks 'what is the most fun class to play'. Sorcs rank 2nd at 7.4. Psions 4th at 6.9. Wizards 10th at 6.0.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Here's an example one of the problems with a 1st level power. With my character Jaden, Kalashtar Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer of 17th level with Psionic Charm. He has a Psionatrix of Telepathy. Using 17 PP, 1 to power, 2 to make applicaple to a giant, 4 extend from an hour/level to a day/level and 10 more to raise the DC. DC with a 28 intelligence came to DC 30. A wizard would be hard pressed to get beyond a DC 26 with a charm monster. DC 10 + 1 power level + 9 for stat + 8 for 16 add PP + 1 item and +1 Kalashtar.

Granted that Only a telepath starts with this power but a 3rd level psion could use a feat to get this.

 

[FrostedMini1337]

2 Focus + Heighten it to 9th + 9 to stat = 30. Every wizard needs Heighten.

17 PP = a ninth level power doesn't it?

Psion could add two to the DC, but he'd have to expend focus. The wizard can't use the item, but he could easily brew the same thing up himself, or take a PrC to raise the DC.

Edit: To clarify I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just saying that was a bad example.

 

[wildstarsreach]

2 Focus + Heighten it to 9th + 9 to stat = 30. Every wizard needs Heighten.

17 PP = a ninth level power doesn't it?

Psion could add two to the DC, but he'd have to expend focus. The wizard can't use the item, but he could easily brew the same thing up himself, or take a PrC to raise the DC.

Edit: To clarify I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just saying that was a bad example.

I disagree, this is indemic to the Psion class. To even match it you have to take multiple feats.

 

[FrostedMini1337]

Well, if you let the wizard use the item, and the Kalashatar bonus effects spells you need 1 feat. (Don't have my ebberon book onhand, I think it would work anyway with the psionics/magic transparency thing).

And he would most likely have those feats anway wouldn't he? Well, at least Heighten, and if he's an echanter he will most likely have both focus. If we're assuming the psion is a telepath, we can assume the wizard is an echanter. Those 3 feats are highly useful.

 

[Nifft]

Here's an example one of the problems with a 1st level power. With my character Jaden, Kalashtar Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer of 17th level with Psionic Charm. He has a Psionatrix of Telepathy. Using 17 PP, 1 to power, 2 to make applicaple to a giant, 4 extend from an hour/level to a day/level and 10 more to raise the DC. DC with a 28 intelligence came to DC 30. A wizard would be hard pressed to get beyond a DC 26 with a charm monster. DC 10 + 1 power level + 9 for stat + 8 for 16 add PP + 1 item and +1 Kalashtar.

Granted that Only a telepath starts with this power but a 3rd level psion could use a feat to get this.

Soo... a power that only 1/6 of all Psions have normally vs. a spell that any Wizard can get (but not some Specialists -- let's say 3/4 of Wizards can have it at no extra cost). A power that costs a feat for 5/6 of Psions vs. a spell that costs a feat (to heighten) for a Wizard to use effectively at high level. Sounds about equal.

Of course, an Enchanter could choose to prepare dominate monster instead of heightened charm -- a Wizard knows a lot of spells by level 20. The Psion will have exactly 36 powers known. A Psion can't even trade out powers like a Sorcerer trades out spells. So, a 1st level Power better not be useless at level 20. The same does not go for spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Tsuul]

I disagree, this is indemic to the Psion class. To even match it you have to take multiple feats.

To be precise, to match it you need 1 feat (Heighten), plus one item, plus one racial bonus. Your character is pretty well optimized.
How are the item and racial bonus indemic to the psion class? Remove them from the argument.

In both cases for the charm effect, arcane and psionic versions, the characters are still blowing the equivalent of 9th level resources; a 9th level spell slot or 17PPs.