Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Thanee]

A falsifiable hypothesis requires an objective standard of measure, something a non-interested 3rd party could decide was met, or not met.

"About on one power level with" is subjective, and within the general bounds of it, massive quantities of information have been put forth. None of this is apparently sufficient.

What would be? Spare me generalities. Give me exact, objective numbers.

Really, your post just reads like... "sorry, can't do that, but don't really want to say so."

You asked, what would be sufficient evidence for me, I told you that.
And I don't think that was in an unreasonable or unanswerable fashion.

If you cannot do that, that's not my fault, really.

The PHB has full mechanical data on the Sorcerer.
The XPH has full mechanical data on the Psion.

What else do you need to compare two classes?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The Divine Minion is just one of several ways to achieve the build.

Yep, the biggest 'problem' is this ridiculous creature ability, of course.

I finally (re)found an old post I've been looking for. You can argue until you're blue in the face about game balance, but the only way to really test it is to playtest it right? For good results you need to playtest across multiple tables, campaigns, DMs, and players. This thread is a conglomeration of 30 polls asking people 'what is the most powerful class'. Wizards, by consensus, tie for 2nd place (with clerics and artificers) at 8.6/10. Psions come in third at 8.1. Sorcs come in much lower at 6.4. Does that do anything for you Thanee?

Actually, no. Playtesting is, unfortunately, not a strong method to test balance, unless it is specifically done in an environment, which has this purpose and no other, where classes and circumstances are specifically tailored to test certain factors. That, of course, would be the point of playtesting, but it rarely is done that way, because it's hard work and not much fun to do so. That doesn't mean playtesting isn't good. It certainly is. It's a decent method for spot tests.

There are simply too many factors which skew the results, like personal preferances, commoness of certain classes (i.e. Psions aren't used in most campaigns, the results are therefore automatically skewed towards Clerics, Druids and Wizards, since they are in the Core rules), specific broken abilities/spells/powers/PrC/etc, which don't say anything about the classes that use them themselves, house rules, specific character choices, player experience, DM experience, playing styles, etc.

That's why I don't think polls like this are very accurate.

Also, Sorcerers are often voted very low in such polls, and there are plenty reasons for this. I don't believe it does them (or their power) justice, though.

It's still an interesting poll (or series of polls), which does give some insight into people's opinions about the classes, I suppose (link isn't working right now, but I will try again later), thanks!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Really, your post just reads like... "sorry, can't do that, but don't really want to say so."

You asked, what would be sufficient evidence for me, I told you that.
And I don't think that was in an unreasonable or unanswerable fashion.

If you cannot do that, that's not my fault, really.

The PHB has full mechanical data on the Sorcerer.
The XPH has full mechanical data on the Psion.

What else do you need to compare two classes?

Bye
Thanee

I dont even know how to answer this. Are you being disingenous? I can only hope so.
What exactly does 'more powerful' mean? More damage per round? Per day? Better save-or-dies? What?

 

[Thanee]

What exactly does 'more powerful' mean?

It's a common phrase used on message boards (polls, etc) like this.

More damage per round? Per day? Better save-or-dies? What?

Everything. The whole picture.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrostedMini1337]

Did the Complete Psionic add a lot of Save or Dies the only ones I can remember are Decerebrate, Microcosm, Assimilate, Crisis of Life, and Disintegrate(Psionic) and Recall Death, with Disintegrate being the stupidest power ever. Crisis of Breath also counts, I guess.

Magic has Imprisonment, WoB, Weird, Phantasmal Killer, Finger of Death, and Circle of Death and Disintegrate. They also have PWK and Symbol of Death, but those are kinda iffy.

For my money I'd rather have Stop Heart or Implosion than any of those....

Anyway, just wondered where the save or die thing came from. I always thought that was where psionics lost out.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

It's a common phrase used on message boards (polls, etc) like this.



Everything. The whole picture.

Bye
Thanee

So, a mathmatical analysis of all potential power/feat/class/PRC combinations, in all circumstances, in all game styles, evaluated for impact per day, impact per round, surviviablity, flexibility, mobility, utility, synergy with other party members, buffing, debuffing, crowd control...

Would you like a side of fries with that, too?

In case I am unclear.. people throw around 'more powerful' in a fashion that enables nothing more than further debate, talking past one another, changing the balance target, etc. I am proposing that we attempt to move this to the next level, and apply something vaguely resembling rigor to the process. While not true science, the idea of testable, falsifiable, repeatable-by-disinterested-3rd-parties theories and standards is, I think, a much better step towards rejecting or accepting the 'Psionics is overpowered' hypothesis put forward by the OP, and lately supported by your good self.

If your not interested in that, let me return the conversation to its more basic level.

"Psionics is too powerful, because of power XYZ, and anecdote PDQ"
"No, Arcane Magic is too powerful, because of spell ABC and anecdote DMZ"
"Is not"
"Is too"
"Not"
"Too"
"Not"
"Too"

While not enlightening, it is entertaining, and has the added benefit of never being able to be proven wrong.

 

[Vurt]

In this discussion I see constant references to the psion, largely in part due to the framing of the issue by the OP, but it does leave me to wonder somewhat whether folks feel that "psionics is broken" as well for the psychic warrior and the wilder. Not to derail this thread, but I am curious.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[FrostedMini1337]

The psi warrior is on par with most classes imo, and the wilder, while incredibly fun, is horribly, horribly underpowered if your going striaght class. I would honestly only consider taking serious levels in wilder if was genning a high level character that needed a very limited amount of psionics to qualify for a PrC. The lack of power known is too immense to live with. Your first level power pretty much has to be crystal shard. Cleric bab does nothing for you with crappy weapon selection and rouge hitpoints.

On the other hand, from my DMing days, Wilders can make murderous evil guys. Wild Surge a Mind Thrust with a psionomatrix and greater power focus. That'll end the Fighter or the Rouge.

 

[Taraxia]

It's a common phrase used on message boards (polls, etc) like this.



Everything. The whole picture.

Bye
Thanee

It's a common phrase because it has no definition and is completely subjective. It's *easy* to say things like that. Look, let's approach this from the other direction. I'm convinced the Sorcerer is underpowered relative to the Wizard. That's why I'll never play one.

Now you prove to me why I'm wrong. Based on Everything. The whole picture. Come on, it's a simple question. Why are sorcerers powerful? (And you have to *prove* it, not just say it, since people have given a hell of a lot more *evidence* for the power balance of the Psion than you have for the power balance of the Sorcerer in this thread.)

 

[wildstarsreach]

The psi warrior is on par with most classes imo, and the wilder, while incredibly fun, is horribly, horribly underpowered if your going striaght class. I would honestly only consider taking serious levels in wilder if was genning a high level character that needed a very limited amount of psionics to qualify for a PrC. The lack of power known is too immense to live with. Your first level power pretty much has to be crystal shard. Cleric bab does nothing for you with crappy weapon selection and rouge hitpoints.

On the other hand, from my DMing days, Wilders can make murderous evil guys. Wild Surge a Mind Thrust with a psionomatrix and greater power focus. That'll end the Fighter or the Rouge.

Not having played the PsyWar, Wilder, Lurk, Divine Mind, Ardent or Mindblade, I don't have any real experience with them but from my estimation they are not imbalanced like the Psion or possibly the Erudite.

The other classes have much less PP or powers. The Erudite get upto 51 powers and Psion 36 powers. Granted that 11 of the powers require access that the Erudite doesn't have to powers restricted to other classes.

I guess that I'm not going to convince people that there are inherent problems with this class. I love the class but see that there are problems. I give up commenting. thanks for all of your opinions.