Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Taraxia]

Okay, the Psion gets a bonus feat at 1st level that neither of these get. He could take Psicrystal Affinity or Imprint Stone. He could have the affect of a familiar or the psionic equivalent of scribing a scroll.

Again, they have the effect of three feats to start with. No verbal, somantic or material part of spells.

Stop harping on this. It really doesn't matter, given that the most important ways to disrupt a spellcaster -- attacking him or grappling him -- still work perfectly well on a psion.

So you can't use Silence against them. Big deal. That's the only one I can think of that matters -- when have you ever actually found a way to reliably stop a spellcaster by taking away his pouch of material components? A DM who *did* do that on a regular basis would rightfully be called cheestastic.

At our last game in which we had 3 encounters, the wizard was comparable. But that was 2 encounters less than my character had. We were both spent after 3(Wizard) or 5(Cerebremancer) encounters. Our wizard wasn't there for the previous week with the other 2 encounters.

Now, I'll admit that I haven't played a Sorcerer. I've considered it due to this list, it is on my choice of future characters.

All I can say is that if I were playing a wizard or sorcerer in your party I could probably thrash you. It's not at all hard to get a wizard who can outshine a psion if you build him right.

 

[Tikiman]

@wildstarsreach;

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we determined that there wasn't a problem any more? If you didn't they why are you still so fixated on blaming the psion for a problem that doesn't exist?

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we showed you that your character was built much better then his comrads? And the part where you yourself said your friends wanted it that way? If you didn't then why are you still trying to compare your character to your groupmates? They want to be less powerful then you, and have built there characters accordingly.

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we informed you that your character is 50% wizard, 50% psion? If you didn't then why are you still trying to pin all of your balance problems on...wait a minute, you don't actually HAVE any levels in Psion (unless you've taken more since what your DM posted). You've got 3 levels in a non-core racial class, and then 10 levels in a prestige class (which people have agreed could be the problem). Are you trying to tell us that the last 2 levels you've taken in a psion are what is making you overpowered?

You do not have a psion. Let me repeat that. You do not have a psion. You have cobbled together non-core material in a very potent fashion and created a character that is a league ahead of your groupmates (who WANT him to be a league ahead). Do psionics a favor and try a XPH only PsiWar, Wilder, or Psion before you start monkeying with the system.

I'm sorry if this comes of as a bit of an attack, but we are reaching a point of true stupidity here. Your own DM has told you there isn't a problem. Your group members have told you there isn't a problem. Everyone is happy with your character, except you, and even then you only have a problem with half of him. Despite all of this you're still hell bent on blaming the XPH for what you as a player have done. Quit passing the buck and realize that your character is overpowered because you made him that way.

How a class behaves in a normal situation does.

And when normal situations were polled across wildly disparate gaming styles, DM's, players, material allowed, etc, it was found that the psion was 5% behind the wizard.

But, just like all other evidence that doesn't agree with you, you're just going to ignore it because anything that disagrees with you is obviously flawed in some fashion. I'm sorry Thanee, you're 100% correct. Your baseless opinion does have more validity in an argument then the opinions of hundreds of other gamers backed up by pages upon pages of evidence that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both supporters and detractors. I don't know how I could have ever disagreed with you.

Again, sorry if this post is offensive, but we've gotten into broken record territory. Same claims, same evidence, same ignoring of said evidence.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Okay, the Psion gets a bonus feat at 1st level that neither of these get. He could take Psicrystal Affinity or Imprint Stone. He could have the affect of a familiar or the psionic equivalent of scribing a scroll.

Again, they have the effect of three feats to start with. No verbal, somantic or material part of spells.

I will admit that at the upper end of level 1-20, the Sorcerer and Wizard begin to come back to a more level playing field. From 6th to 16th is where my I've seen my character out shining some of our party.

At our last game in which we had 3 encounters, the wizard was comparable. But that was 2 encounters less than my character had. We were both spent after 3(Wizard) or 5(Cerebremancer) encounters. Our wizard wasn't there for the previous week with the other 2 encounters.

Now, I'll admit that I haven't played a Sorcerer. I've considered it due to this list, it is on my choice of future characters.

Here's one of the counter balancing factors for the Wizard vs the Sorcerer. The Wizard gets 4 metamagic feats. This is 11 feats vs 7 feats if both are human. The wizard can match the sorcerer here and take more feats to increase his effectiveness or take item creation feats to make magic items to improve his effectiveness. For the sorcerer to take some of these, it seriously degrades his capabilities.

Now the Psion has almost as many feats as the wizard. Granted that he cannot unlearn a power unlike a sorcerer. But his powers singlely tend to be individually more powerful than the spell equivalents. They tend to include all variants of higher levels spells. Most have augmentations that keep the powers competative with the highest level of powers the psioncan manifest.

 

[takasi]

Er, you misunderstand transparency. Transparency means that SR *is* PR. They're two words for the same effect, because magic and psionics are the same kind of "energy", so being able to unilaterally "resist" that kind of energy works on both types of uses of that energy.

You're right. What I'm using isn't transparency. IMC magic and psionics are different. However, for some strange reason every single creature that the party encounters that has spell resistance just so happens to also have psionic resistance.

 

[KuKu]

But his powers singlely tend to be individually more powerful than the spell equivalents.

This looks like a good thing to test with the criteria posted before. If we go by what people have said then it is both true and false, a contradiction. It may be true for some while not true for others and it being generally true is far from proven. Under what circumstances? Using what resources? Which spells and powers are being called into question? What about effects that are unique to one or the other, how do they count? What is the molality of a milkyway?

 

[wildstarsreach]

@wildstarsreach;

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we determined that there wasn't a problem any more? If you didn't they why are you still so fixated on blaming the psion for a problem that doesn't exist?

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we showed you that your character was built much better then his comrads? And the part where you yourself said your friends wanted it that way? If you didn't then why are you still trying to compare your character to your groupmates? They want to be less powerful then you, and have built there characters accordingly.

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we informed you that your character is 50% wizard, 50% psion? If you didn't then why are you still trying to pin all of your balance problems on...wait a minute, you don't actually HAVE any levels in Psion (unless you've taken more since what your DM posted). You've got 3 levels in a non-core racial class, and then 10 levels in a prestige class (which people have agreed could be the problem). Are you trying to tell us that the last 2 levels you've taken in a psion are what is making you overpowered?

You do not have a psion. Let me repeat that. You do not have a psion. You have cobbled together non-core material in a very potent fashion and created a character that is a league ahead of your groupmates (who WANT him to be a league ahead). Do psionics a favor and try a XPH only PsiWar, Wilder, or Psion before you start monkeying with the system.

I'm sorry if this comes of as a bit of an attack, but we are reaching a point of true stupidity here. Your own DM has told you there isn't a problem. Your group members have told you there isn't a problem. Everyone is happy with your character, except you, and even then you only have a problem with half of him. Despite all of this you're still hell bent on blaming the XPH for what you as a player have done. Quit passing the buck and realize that your character is overpowered because you made him that way.



And when normal situations were polled across wildly disparate gaming styles, DM's, players, material allowed, etc, it was found that the psion was 5% behind the wizard.

But, just like all other evidence that doesn't agree with you, you're just going to ignore it because anything that disagrees with you is obviously flawed in some fashion. I'm sorry Thanee, you're 100% correct. Your baseless opinion does have more validity in an argument then the opinions of hundreds of other gamers backed up by pages upon pages of evidence that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both supporters and detractors. I don't know how I could have ever disagreed with you.

Again, sorry if this post is offensive, but we've gotten into broken record territory. Same claims, same evidence, same ignoring of said evidence.

Yes, you are offensive. You attack Thanee and I instead of looking at the arguments. I do not take you apology as sincere since you are trying to browbeat us. You tell Thanee that "I'm sorry Thanee, you're 100% correct. Your baseless opinion does have more validity in an argument then the opinions of hundreds of other gamers backed up by pages upon pages of evidence that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both supporters and detractors." You attack her. You attack me.

I love the psionics as they are because I see the advantages. From a power gaming perspective, a Psion or Erudite is the class to play. Think about that. Why do most players choose to play a class.

#1 Power
#2 What they are familiar with.
#3 Theme

Most gamers tend towards #1. They want they ability to shine. Power more often gives them that ability.

By your statement "but we've gotten into broken record territory. Same claims, same evidence, same ignoring of said evidence", that this thread should be closed. You appear to want to squash the whole discussion. I believe that you owe both of us an apology. I don't know Thanee but respect her opinion because she takes time to think about what she says and that alone deserves respect. You have shown disrespect to us. I have not disrespected you when you do not do the same for us. Try to use the golden rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I don't want this thread closed as I think that there is a need to identify and a forum to work at coming up with fixes to balance the classes.

 

[wildstarsreach]

You're right. What I'm using isn't transparency. IMC magic and psionics are different. However, for some strange reason every single creature that the party encounters that has spell resistance just so happens to also have psionic resistance.

But you do use the transparency of dispels, Globes or anti-magic.

 

[takasi]

wildstarsreach, if you have a problem with a poster inform a moderator. Keep the focus on the topic, not the posters. What's being said is more important than who is saying it. If you ignore this I'm sure this thread will be locked.

With that gentle warning from your DM, let me add something constructive.

I've already posted a few things that strike me as an advantage for the psion, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say the class is broken. A good question to ask might be "Why do some people ban psioniics from their games?" Is it more because of flavor or is it because of mechanics?

If I were playing the game in Eberron again I definately wouldn't ban psionics due to flavor. i think the setting has done a good job of building a consistent backstory for psionic material. (I'm also looking forward to the Secrets of Sarlona supplement.) However, if I were running the game in a homebrew I might avoid psionics unless I could come up with a good backstory to add them. It's the same thing with adding Incarnum, Taint, Truename, Bonding, Warlocks, Ninjas, or any other major change to the world. Whether the mechanics are balanced or not, the background flavor needs make sense in the world and it isn't always going to work. If someone builds a world and says they don't want monks because they don't like the flavor of unarmed combat in their game then you won't be able to change their mind by simply debating mechanics.

You also have to consider older players who may have a bias against psionics from earlier editions of the game. Just a few things to consider...

 

[wildstarsreach]

This looks like a good thing to test with the criteria posted before. If we go by what people have said then it is both true and false, a contradiction. It may be true for some while not true for others and it being generally true is far from proven. Under what circumstances? Using what resources? Which spells and powers are being called into question? What about effects that are unique to one or the other, how do they count? What is the molality of a milkyway?

All the energy powers. They each can utilize 4 types of energy at manifestation. A wizard or sorcerer would have to have 4 feats of energy substitution to be used with all of there damage spells to be able to match this.

Energy Adaptation, this protects against the equivalent of 5 second level spells or manifestations. There is no equivalent that I have found in spellcasters. Allow only one energy type at start but give an additional augment for each 2 PP spent, it can protect against an additional energy type upto the 5 that this protects against. This would be a maximum of 15 PP at 15th level.

Temporal Acceleration is a sixth level power that gives you one additional round or more. Time stop is a ninth level spell that gives d4+1 rounds. I would do one of 3 things.

#1 Leave as is except augment is 1 round for each additional 8 PP.
#2 Make 8th level, does 2 additional rounds for 15 PP and a negative augment for -4 PP's to receive only 1 additional round.
#9 Make 9th level power with no augments and get an additional 1d4 rounds.

This is my two cent anddoes this help you?

 

[takasi]

But you do use the transparency of dispels, Globes or anti-magic.

That's true. So far it hasn't really been a problem though has it?