Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Tikiman]

You appear to want to squash the whole discussion.

You appear to want to ignore the parts of this discussion that don't agree with you. The first time I tried to politely point out what the problem was (and it turned out to be the actual problem) you just ignored me. I smacked you around a little bit and *poof* you finally found out what the actual problem was (and then promptly proceeded to ignore it). If you don't want to get 'attacked', try listening when people are being polite.

And you're STILL dancing around the fact that your character is overpowered because you made him that way. You ignoring us is highly disrespectful (and 'us' includes your DM and group members). Want an apology? Admit that your character is overpowered not because of the rule system he uses (half of the time) but because you made him that way. And because your group wants him that way. And because you're using non-core material.

So go back and reply to the facts presented in my post. Go back and refute the fact that you're not actually playing a XPH Psion. Refute the fact that your character is overpowered because everyone wants him to be that way. Refute the fact that this whole problem stems from your character choices. Then I will stop being so blunt. Until then, it seems as if though you're not listening, and that is not only insulting, but infuriating as well.

 

[wildstarsreach]

That's true. So far it hasn't really been a problem though has it?

That is true.

 

[KuKu]

All the energy powers. They each can utilize 4 types of energy at manifestation. A wizard or sorcerer would have to have 4 feats of energy substitution to be used with all of there damage spells to be able to match this.

Energy Adaptation, this protects against the equivalent of 5 second level spells or manifestations. There is no equivalent that I have found in spellcasters. Allow only one energy type at start but give an additional augment for each 2 PP spent, it can protect against an additional energy type upto the 5 that this protects against. This would be a maximum of 15 PP at 15th level.

Temporal Acceleration is a sixth level power that gives you one additional round or more. Time stop is a ninth level spell that gives d4+1 rounds. I would do one of 3 things.

#1 Leave as is except augment is 1 round for each additional 8 PP.
#2 Make 8th level, does 2 additional rounds for 15 PP and a negative augment for -4 PP's to receive only 1 additional round.
#9 Make 9th level power with no augments and get an additional 1d4 rounds.

This is my two cent anddoes this help you?

You have listed a few, but that does not a general trend make. For the first, arcane guys are much better at force damage which bypasses all energy resistances and typically does not give a save. Magic missile is first level, does a good amount of damage, and it doesnt allow for a save or a to hit roll. Shadow evocation though can do all five energy types of damage and can emulate a huge number of different spells. This means I have just named several spells which could invalidate the general tendency that you are saying, if we are looking in a vacuum. Specified Energy adaption is the power you want to compare the level two spell to as it is the most comparable, and they compare rather well. The tradeoff is that one is personal only while the other can, with extra resources, be made into an immediate action. So those are very close, no clear advantage all of the time. There are other unique effects, or earlier or later, on both sides, some are simply better at it than others. That is why a systemic comparison needs to be made across the board otherwise the comparisons are lost and people will make many claims about tendencies which may or may not actually be present. We could go back and forth with examples and never get anywhere until they were compiled in a single source that was easily viewed with the details people could agree upon. Does this sound beneficial?

 

[NilesB]

Crystal Shard, if you ask me, is actually one of the most powerful powers in the game.

Touch Attacks are never hard to make, it gives no spell resistance, and that liches immunity to mind effecting won't matter when the crystal flies through his chest. Hell you can weapon focus the ray for that matter.

Liches dont have spell/power resistance. They do on the other hand have damage resistance that applies against the piercing type damage a Crystal shard does.

 

[wildstarsreach]

You appear to want to ignore the parts of this discussion that don't agree with you. The first time I tried to politely point out what the problem was (and it turned out to be the actual problem) you just ignored me. I smacked you around a little bit and *poof* you finally found out what the actual problem was (and then promptly proceeded to ignore it). If you don't want to get 'attacked', try listening when people are being polite.

And you're STILL dancing around the fact that your character is overpowered because you made him that way. You ignoring us is highly disrespectful (and 'us' includes your DM and group members). Want an apology? Admit that your character is overpowered not because of the rule system he uses (half of the time) but because you made him that way. And because your group wants him that way. And because you're using non-core material.

So go back and reply to the facts presented in my post. Go back and refute the fact that you're not actually playing a XPH Psion. Refute the fact that your character is overpowered because everyone wants him to be that way. Refute the fact that this whole problem stems from your character choices. Then I will stop being so blunt. Until then, it seems as if though you're not listening, and that is not only insulting, but infuriating as well.

I sit and make a character every level for replacement who is a straight Psion every level in case the DM does kills the character. The character would be 90% or the current character with 4 additional feats that the current character doesn't have of replacments of practiced spellcaster/manifester.

You say "So go back and reply to the facts presented in my post. Go back and refute the fact that you're not actually playing a XPH Psion. Refute the fact that your character is overpowered because everyone wants him to be that way. Refute the fact that this whole problem stems from your character choices. Then I will stop being so blunt. Until then, it seems as if though you're not listening, and that is not only insulting, but infuriating as well", you ignore the facts presented when I started this post. That there are problems of imbalance with psionics. Yes I did state that my character was built effectively and in my campaign see the problem just from the psionics end since the wizard class is used to support the Psion Class.

Over 40 posts ago I did agree with the argument that my character with regard to the other characters was broken. So again, need I constantly go back to my character or can we discuss the problem that psionics has some problems that need to be addressed.

You especially owe Thanee an apology and I think that you owe me one as well. By my not discussing what you want here, I'm inviting your right to be blunt and rude. I started this thread as "Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it", not about my character. The only reason to show my character, was to stop the arguments that my character or opinions were not based on the rules from non-sanctioned d20 books.

I have listened to you and the other posters on this list and backed off of my dice limit caps based on power level. This is supposed to be a discussion and all I seem to be getting are rants.

Now I am redirecting the conversation back to the discussion about what I had originally started. If you feel the need to be rude, please refrain from posting. I don't insult you or make this personal but you seem to feel that it is your right to do so. Another instance of rude behavior and I will report your actions as they are uncalled for.

 

[IcyCool]

Not to criticize the GM, or the game

No offence taken. I was the GM in that game. I apologize if I'm fuzzy on the details, it has been a while. For reference, I'm not currently running a game, but I'd allow psionics in if I ran another one. I'd just make it clear that I'd be keeping a careful eye on the character, and would work with the player to adjust it if the power was out of whack.

But boy, if that Dragon had been even a wee bit paranoid and had a MGoI up... actually, I imagine she would have swtiched MOs, picked up her teammate in her accelerated time frame, and run like heck.

Plenty paranoid, just no MGoI. And if he had one up, the MO would probably have been to either run, or get the wizard (who was hiding behind a wall of force trying to decide what to do) to dispel it. It's been a while, but I seem to recall that an old red isn't much of a spellcaster, what's their caster level/max spell level known? I think I actually statted out his spells and didn't include that one. I'll hunt around and see if I can find what I put on his spell list.

-stops and thinks- I think there may be some errata on the Anticipatory Strike

I hope so.

 

[IcyCool]

I was sent over from a different site to take a look at this and I am very curious about it.

Ask away. I'll answer as best as I can remember.

How did the character actually kill the beast? Protection from energy would give 120 points of protection, the beast has spell resistance, a touch attack had to be made, and it had rather a lot of hit points to begin with.

Pretty much exclusively with Energy Ray (cold), as far as what damaged him. He was gimped in that he was in a location where he could not take to the air for a few rounds, which limited his mobility. The wilder and the wizard both won the initiative (not hard for them to do). I think we were using Eberron actions points.

Did the wilder make its save vs fear?

Yes.

It takes a round to put up schism, then it couldnt help much with the battle between spell resistance and a lack of fingers which prevents it from using energy ray.

Well, it takes a round to put up Temporal Acceleration, and then Schism is pretty easy to throw down.

With the wilder pumping out an energy ray every round, if it knew the beasts weakness which is not assured, could do 18d8+18*1.5(weakness)*0.95(misschance)*0.75(SR)=86.56875 which means it would've taken an average of 5.753 rounds to kill off the dragon. This gives a 20% chance each time of enervating as well which would end the wilders next turn.

The wilder enervated once, during a Temporal Acceleration (so it pretty much didn't make a difference). She never missed (pretty hard to do with a 5% chance to miss), and she succeeded in defeating the dragon's spell resistence every time with her main blast, and several of the Schism blasts (I think action points were spent on these). The wilder rolled well on damage. Not overwhelming, but certainly above average.

During any one round without massive defenses the wilder dies to either the breath weapon (16d10, average 88, DC 31, the wilder would need at least a 16 con to survive a single failed save on average) or a single round of attacks (average damage if all hit is 93).

The wilder was never in a position to be hit by the breath weapon, due to Anticipatory Strike.

It would seem that more information is required. Just going by the information given so far it would seem to be impossible for the wilder to have won, or even done anything effective.

The wilder repeatedly proved herself to be the most "effective" member of the party in all encounters except for the final one, where she stood around under timeless body.

Please do not take this as an attack. We are all trying to understand balance here I hope and this situation bears some looking in to.

No problem. I will freely admit that it is entirely possible that this was a fluke (although previous performances in the game showed me that she spent a great deal of her time holding back), or that I am a poor gm.

The main thing that jumps out at me with psionics are the things they can do either way better, or way earlier than their arcane equivalents.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

What happened to this plan? This sounds great! Verifiable points which can be debated rationally instead of a few posters less than helpful "it is just better because I say so". In my experience psionics is hands-down more balanced than the very unbalanced vancian system. The vancian system is just a mess. I think that arguements should be made based on these two posters suggestions though as they make for a much much much much much better structure.

Im not sure.. lack of interest?
Part of the problem is that we can see the end from here... no matter what characters are built or put forward, and no matter what paradigm is used to test it, the outcome is too easily decried by those whose assumptions it upsets. By me, by someone else, by anyone, I got to thinking about it and realized that the supporters of the falsified hypothesis could too easily question the outcome.. suggesting different builds, slightly different assumptions, etc.

In addition, the primary advocate of 'Psionics is Broken', who I had hoped to encourage into a more rigorous methodology, has shown no interest in it.

 

[wildstarsreach]

You have listed a few, but that does not a general trend make. For the first, arcane guys are much better at force damage which bypasses all energy resistances and typically does not give a save. Magic missile is first level, does a good amount of damage, and it doesnt allow for a save or a to hit roll. Shadow evocation though can do all five energy types of damage and can emulate a huge number of different spells. This means I have just named several spells which could invalidate the general tendency that you are saying, if we are looking in a vacuum. Specified Energy adaption is the power you want to compare the level two spell to as it is the most comparable, and they compare rather well. The tradeoff is that one is personal only while the other can, with extra resources, be made into an immediate action. So those are very close, no clear advantage all of the time. There are other unique effects, or earlier or later, on both sides, some are simply better at it than others. That is why a systemic comparison needs to be made across the board otherwise the comparisons are lost and people will make many claims about tendencies which may or may not actually be present. We could go back and forth with examples and never get anywhere until they were compiled in a single source that was easily viewed with the details people could agree upon. Does this sound beneficial?

The mages Force effects are not item of discussion and does not follow with what you asked. Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, ect. have access to more types of energy such as positive, negative, shadow and so on.

Shadow evocation gives a full or 1/5 damage. It is one spell unlike every energy power that the psion has.

So, with having the ability to have any of the 4 types of damage (fire, cold, electricity and sonic) is balance by the lack of the other types of damage being absent?

The 2nd level Energy Adaptation, specified is equivalent to its counterpart 2nd level energy resistance. To get all 5 types you would have to manifest this power 5 different times. Energy Adaptation 4th is in the long run more powerful than the 3rd level Protection from Energy. A 15th level caster/manifester in comparison. In any long protracted battle, 30 points written off every type of the 5 types damage is worth more than 180 points of one damage type. Granted that if you fail your save, you will get more miliege out of the 3rd level spell.

 

[IcyCool]

The thing to remember is that it doesn't grant you any extra actions, so if you use it in the 1st round to go twice, you don't get an action in the 2nd round, and can't use any immediate actions until the 3rd round.

Yes, it can basically let you take two actions in the same round (at the cost of giving up your action in the next round). With Schism up, that's four actions in a single round (albeit two of them at reduced caster level).