Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Someone]

@Valor: The arguments I´ve heard for "Psionics are broken" (and I´m just the messenger) are those:

Psions are too flexible

Psionics are too good because they can spend their power points the way they want. If they need to manifest may high level powers, they can. If low level utility powers are needed, they can manifest them until the moon turns blue.

Their damage-dealing powers can deal whatever energy is needed, cherry picking the target´s vulnerabilities.

With scaling, many low level powers (like astral construct or psionic dominate) become defacto high level powers, greatly increasing flexibility and, in practice, number of powers known.

They can apply metapsionics without hindrance except the psionic focus thing: and you can work around that with the right feats.

Psionic powers are too good

Astral Construct is noticeably better than equivalent monsters or natural allys; energy misile is much better than any arcane damage dealing spell... the list goes on.

Psions are hard to counter and defeat

Psions laugh at conditions that make casting difficult, like being silenced, restrained or being naked and without equipment. Even the dreded grapple becomes a nuisance when your Concentration score is high enough. There´s no condition that impedes manifesting that also don´t restrain spellcasting.

Several powers, like Vigor or Timeless body, make psions very durable and hard to kill compared with the standard wizard.

Psions have the highest damage potential

Psions have several powers that gran extra manifestations or actions, like Schism, Temporal Acceleration and Fission. Also, their damaging powers deal more damage than any arcane counterpart. Combining those, and using feats that grans extra foci, a Psion is guaranteed to obliterate whatever they face -spending a large amount of power points- in a single round.

 

[Thanee]

Have you even considered the sheer size of the choice arcane and divine have over Psionics? If that were to be the module for comparison I think you would find Psionics just swamped by the sheer volume of Arcane/Divine spells.

I'm pretty sure, that I stated pretty much that in the very post you were replying to.

I always try to look at it from a neutral position, that's why I usually state advantages and disadvantages of both sides.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Slobber Monster]

@Valor: The arguments I´ve heard for "Psionics are broken" (and I´m just the messenger) are those:

Psions are too flexible

<snip details>

Psionic powers are too good

<snip>

Psions are hard to counter and defeat

<snip>

Psions have the highest damage potential

<snip>

I am of the opinion that all these things taken as a whole are indeed a problem. My personal biggest gripe is with the "too flexible" and "too hard to counter" portions of that and I think the free energy substitution is the biggest offender, Get rid of those two problems and "too good" and "highest damage potential" just become regular class differentation.

 

[Nail]

@Valor: The arguments I´ve heard for "Psionics are broken" (and I´m just the messenger) are those:

Psions are too flexible....

Psionic powers are too good....

Psions are hard to counter and defeat....

Psions have the highest damage potential.....

Wow, someone, that's a concise and accurate list. Well done.

FWIW, I'm one of those DMs who doesn't allow psionics "'cause it's broken". That said, I'd happily adjust my stance if the above problems were fixed (as a whole). Complete Arcane, Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum take stabs at that, and I appreciate the effort. So far the 3rd party d20 effort isn't up to the task.

It's pretty clear making a non-Vancian magic system that is balanced is *very* difficult. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. (There's no such thing as a "quick fix" for psionics, for example.)

 

[Malum]

I suppose I should thank you for responding to my pointless comparison, thank you. How can a comparison remain germane and accurate (iyo)? I thought giving same stat & same level would prove adequate? It is my belief, though unproven, that a X level Warmage vs. equal level Psion will have more damage output because of free level progression w/ lower level spells as where the Psion will have to spend points for same results-Psion will run out of points before Warmage runs out of spells if both have equal stats.

Someone in an earlier post replied “how can the DM compete with a Psion manifesting disintegrate over and over”? Answer have a Sorcerer or a Warmage do same?


EDIT
I like Psions and have played several but the Arcane casters at higher level will have better selection approximately 4x that of a Psion


Malum

 

[wildstarsreach]

Well I don’t know if your DM should be actively trying to stop a character form doing something that he is supposed to be doing but…if he can’t figure out a way to do so then he simply needs to get much much more creative. So a Psion doesn’t have to carry around flammable bat poo…(thanks god). But there are other ways to stop a Psion from being effective. Depending on the Discipline it could be as easy as using a different type of monster. Or maybe make the Psion blind. While this wont necessarily stop him it might slow him down enough. There is also the option of getting the Psion confused or knocked out or some combination of those. With the exceptions of spell components all the same ways to take out a Wiz applies to a Psion. My personal favorite is grapple. Not to mention deal some damage around 12-17 point of damage every two round to the Psion and well have fun making concentration checks.

Wildstarsearch even with the ability to sling disintegrates around often, (even every round if need be). The Power is no where near as powerful (no pun intended) as the Arcane version. It still nears a ranged touch attack (And is applicable to critical hits by the same rules) and has a Fort save for most Damage. And it is a massive drain on power points. Also deepening again on Discipline of your character well this could be one of the few true damage dealing Psionic powers. Not to mention one of the best damage dealing powers, since it can effect even creatures with out Con scores. And it is a fairly high level power so that’s a big counter balance to its constant use as a primary damage dealing power.

I have a questions for you Wildstarsearch. How, if at all, do you make the distinction between your Arcane or Psion powers when you are choosing them? By this I mean do you use your Arcane ones for buff spells and your Psions ones for damage dealing or visa versa? Also how do you find playing a cerebramancer? I don’t mean how is the class but do you find it well balanced and not a broken Prestige Class? It has been hotly debated why with so many if not nearly all the Psionic prestige classes lacking full manifester level progression why they would bother to include one with both arcane and Psionic full caster/manifester levels. Personally I always found it to be a one of the few areas where Psionics in my mind is unbalanced. I actually prefer that prestige classes to not have full manifester progression; it makes the base classes more worthwhile. What do you think?

Valor


To Home and Victory

The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer. With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence. 250 PP @ 17th level

Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks. If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time. Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.

Let us drop my dice cap suggestion at this time and focus on the biggest problem, "The versitility". With all the energy power you can choose at manifestation any one of 4 powers that have advantages versus the spellcaster. You can with a 4th level power defend against 5 types of powers simultaneously where the spell caster would have to cast 5 3rd level spells just to be equal in defense.

Typical combat
Rd 1: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 1-1: Schism
Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
Rd 1 action, cast Mirror image 39 PP expended
Rd 2: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 2-1: Dragon prophecy full round
Sun rd 2-2: Energy adaptation
Rd 2 action, cast Stoneskin
Rd 2 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 30 PP expended
Rd 3: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 3-1: Inertial Armor to max
Sub rd 3-2: Force screen to max
Rd 3 action, Finger of death
Rd 3 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 57 PP expended
Rd 4: Do whatever helps the party most

By this time the fighters are hurt but my psion is fresh and buffed. He has a temporary action point (Eberron game) to help hit any target that he may not have hit, AC is 33, the creature if the get into melee will miss fairly often and plenty of temporary hit points to soak up damage.

126 PP expended and the character is protected and putting out quite abit of damage to help the party and will give out a lot more in round 4-6, Very few combats against even the toughest monsters go longer than that.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Well I don’t know if your DM should be actively trying to stop a character form doing something that he is supposed to be doing but…if he can’t figure out a way to do so then he simply needs to get much much more creative. So a Psion doesn’t have to carry around flammable bat poo…(thanks god). But there are other ways to stop a Psion from being effective. Depending on the Discipline it could be as easy as using a different type of monster. Or maybe make the Psion blind. While this wont necessarily stop him it might slow him down enough. There is also the option of getting the Psion confused or knocked out or some combination of those. With the exceptions of spell components all the same ways to take out a Wiz applies to a Psion. My personal favorite is grapple. Not to mention deal some damage around 12-17 point of damage every two round to the Psion and well have fun making concentration checks.

Wildstarsearch even with the ability to sling disintegrates around often, (even every round if need be). The Power is no where near as powerful (no pun intended) as the Arcane version. It still nears a ranged touch attack (And is applicable to critical hits by the same rules) and has a Fort save for most Damage. And it is a massive drain on power points. Also deepening again on Discipline of your character well this could be one of the few true damage dealing Psionic powers. Not to mention one of the best damage dealing powers, since it can effect even creatures with out Con scores. And it is a fairly high level power so that’s a big counter balance to its constant use as a primary damage dealing power.

I have a questions for you Wildstarsearch. How, if at all, do you make the distinction between your Arcane or Psion powers when you are choosing them? By this I mean do you use your Arcane ones for buff spells and your Psions ones for damage dealing or visa versa? Also how do you find playing a cerebramancer? I don’t mean how is the class but do you find it well balanced and not a broken Prestige Class? It has been hotly debated why with so many if not nearly all the Psionic prestige classes lacking full manifester level progression why they would bother to include one with both arcane and Psionic full caster/manifester levels. Personally I always found it to be a one of the few areas where Psionics in my mind is unbalanced. I actually prefer that prestige classes to not have full manifester progression; it makes the base classes more worthwhile. What do you think?

Valor


To Home and Victory

The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer. With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence. 250 PP @ 17th level

Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks. If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time. Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.

Let us drop my dice cap suggestion at this time and focus on the biggest problem, "The versitility". With all the energy power you can choose at manifestation any one of 4 powers that have advantages versus the spellcaster. You can with a 4th level power defend against 5 types of powers simultaneously where the spell caster would have to cast 5 3rd level spells just to be equal in defense.

Typical combat
Rd 1: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 1-1: Schism
Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
Rd 1 action, cast Mirror image 39 PP expended
Rd 2: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 2-1: Dragon prophecy full round
Sun rd 2-2: Energy adaptation
Rd 2 action, cast Stoneskin
Rd 2 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 30 PP expended
Rd 3: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
Sub rd 3-1: Inertial Armor to max
Sub rd 3-2: Force screen to max
Rd 3 action, Finger of death
Rd 3 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray 57 PP expended
Rd 4: Do whatever helps the party most

By this time the fighters are hurt but my psion is fresh and buffed. He has a temporary action point (Eberron game) to help hit any target that he may not have hit, AC is 33, the creature if the get into melee will miss fairly often and plenty of temporary hit points to soak up damage.

126 PP expended and the character is protected and putting out quite abit of damage to help the party and will give out a lot more in round 4-6, Very few combats against even the toughest monsters go longer than that.

 

[Thanee]

I thought giving same stat & same level would prove adequate?

Unfortunately, no it does not.

It is my belief, though unproven, that a X level Warmage vs. equal level Psion will have more damage output because of free level progression w/ lower level spells as where the Psion will have to spend points for same results-Psion will run out of points before Warmage runs out of spells if both have equal stats.

That is so. It doesn't really need to be proven, it's an obvious fact, that when you add up damage dice (one die per point of caster/manifester level of a spell/power, caps included), the casters will get a higher total.

This information, however, doesn't say anything by itself. And that's why I said the comparison this way is pointless, because it takes way too little things into consideration.

For example, I can make a sorcerer with not a single damaging spell, which will be very powerful as a character. If you use damage output over a day to compare classes, this character will be lousy. This is obviously wrong.

Damage is easy to compare, that is why it is often used in comparison, but easy does not equal good. A good comparison takes every important factor into consideration. Comparing damage over a day does not even remotely do this.

I like Psions...

Nothing wrong with that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[RigaMortus2]

This is a 17th level character you are describing. At that level, "brokeness" goes out the window as all bets are off. Characters of 17th level are supposed to be very powerful and do fantastic things. Especially casters/manifesters.

 

[kelvinaw273]

Actually I completely disagree ......

I personally love to play Psionics characters. I do see where they have distinct advantages as well as limitations. Most of their powers are short range. This does not balance that all the powers do not have dice limits unlike Arcane or Divine spell casters. 1st and 2nd level spells have between 5 and 7 dice damage typically. 3rd and 4th are at 10 dice, 5th and 6th at 15 dice and 7th and 8th are limited to 20 dice. The Arcane or Divine spellcasters have to prepare their spells in advance. They have a greater selection and theoretically more versatility, but experience gained is generally based on direct results. Also, they don’t have the 3 components of verbal, somatic and material components that spell casting has. To add, a Psionic character can make a concentration check to stop a visible display from being seen that he/she did something. A spellcaster would have to take several feats for this kind of stealth spellcasting to equal what you get with Psionics.

On the other hand a spellcaster gets lots more spells than a psion gets powers. Also, when a spell inflicts extra damage, does it take up a higher spell slot? That is what a psion augmenting a power has to do, ineffect. Your point about using componants to spellcasting is taken, but then compare the number of spells and powers each has, and the total number of spells a spellcaster can cast compared to fully augmented powers the psionic character can cast, and the spell-caster is well ahead.

The feats for Psionics powers just add cost to the powers unlike spellcasting which adds that the spells have to be memorized at higher levels to utilize their advantages. To cast a maximized and empowered fireball would be an 8th level memorization doing 90 pts. An energy burst 3rd level of fire by an equivalent manifester of 15th level, would do 94 points of damage. Not much more but this could be done round after round till the cows come home or the psion runs out of points. Now look at disintegrate, a maximized disintegrate would be a 9th level spell memorized doing 204 points vs. 156 points for the equivalent manifester. This is provided that the creature fails a fortitude save. The manifester will have at least 6-10 tries at disintegrating the opponents vs. 1-2 for the spellcaster.

Costing more points is the equivilent of raising spell level to a psionic character. Sure they get 6-10 tries - but what can they do afterwards? After the spellcaster's attempts, they can try umpteen other spells to affect an enemy.

What is even more the problem is the prestige class Cerebremancer. Both Arcane and Psionics use the same prerequisite intelligence. The wizard class makes it possible for a psion to go all out on the offensive with his Psionics and use his wizard class to supplement the defensive.

Not like, say, a Favoured Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge?

Given the above premises, let’s look at powers by level. Any not mentioned are not unbalancing in general. Specific combos could make them a problem.

All of these take no account of the COST of augmentation, which effectively raises the level of the power - a 1st level power augmented can become the equivilent of a 3rd level spell, but remember that a spellcaster has both the 1st and the 3rd level spell where the psionic (less powers than spells) has only the one power.

Basically, the psionic is no more "broken" than the Warlock or the CoD. What you must consider is the nature of the three kinds of magic. Take three runners: one specializes in the 5000 meters one runs marathons, and one is a sprinter on the 200 meters. Which is best? Well, the marathon runner is the equivilent of the warlock - he can go for longer than the others, but he is slower (less damage output per round). The 5000 meter runner (the conventional spellcaster) can go faster (better damage output per round) and put on a good sprint finish to boot (he can really jack it up if he has too) - but he cannot go for as long; Your typical 3-4 encounter day and he is worn out. Now the psionic is like a sprinter, he can go well faster than either of the others (really amazing damage output over a few rounds) but after that he's done, he has to rest.

Now which of these is broken? Obviously none of them. The psion has to sit back until he is really needed, husbanding his power points until he really has to go for it. The spellcaster can be freeer with his spells, but can still run out, and he can still do a strong burst if he has too. The Warlock can hammer away all day, but has little options when it comes to boosting it. It's all a question of balancing - if the DM allows the party only one encounter a day and lets them rest whenever they want, the psionic is King over the others. If he forces the party onward and onward never letting them rest, the Warlock rules the roost. If either class comes across as "borken" perhaps the DM should reconsider his tactics?