Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[takasi]

Historians have to rigorously check their theses against facts and records and the interpretations of other historians. That's why history is an academic discipline rather than a whole bunch of people venting their speculations into the air. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying, "I was totally well off and happy in the 1960's; my house was very nice, my job was great, and I loved the government; so all that social unrest is a myth". It's exactly the sort of thing historians are *warned about* when reading primary sources, and the reason historians don't just interview some guy who was alive back then and make his statements into a history book -- because *individual experience is biased and unreliable and has to be checked next to the facts and the experiences of others*.

To be fair though, it only takes one witness to document their experience. Experimentation can be done with one person, and proper facts and conclusions can be drawn in isolation.

If someone plays a class like a wizard or psion and tests various manifestations, spells, feats, etc in play there's no reason why he can't draw conclusions. He may not have expressed his reasoning behind those conclusions yet but you can't deny that he could be correct. You also can't say he's right until he provides evidence of course, but he could have all the "evidence" he needs by simply playing the game. Game mechanics are very abstract, and do not necessarily need extensive playtesting and multiple perspectives to find errors. Solving those errors, on the other hand...

 

[takasi]

The ability to semi-Heighten for free is part of the point of psions. It's why they get so few powers known compared to spells known -- because their lower-level powers turn into higher-level powers. This is limited, though, as others have pointed out, and is in any case an *essential feature of the class*. Take it away and you might as well just make Psions into Sorcerers with a different spell list.

Wait, doesn't the psion actually have MORE powers known per level than a sorcerer has spells? I may be wrong on that one. Anyone?

As far as Eschew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spell, these are all fairly pointless metamagic feats to take. A character who takes them will be suboptimally built, because Silence doesn't come up often enough to be worth taking a feat to offset, and Still Spell is only useful for those wizards who are wearing armor with an ASF chance, which itself leads to suboptimal builds. And Eschew Materials is just, well, dumb. It makes you marginally more likely to survive being grappled. Woot.

A common tactic for defeating a low-mid level wizard is to cast silence on grapplers so they can target casters. You can't do this to a psion. Still spell and silent spell get around this, but they are very expensive as you pointed out (not worth it). A psion gets them for free, totally bypassing this "DM challenge" to casters.

This is really like saying a fighter is broken relative to a wizard because a fighter gets Martial Weapon Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, etc. "for free" rather than having to take the feats. This is why counting feats as a way to compare classes is dumb, because you clearly have fairly pointless feats (Toughness, Eschew Materials, Deft Hands) vs. really good or at least significant feats (Empower Spell, Power Attack, Mobility).

Again, I don't find those feats pointless. However, a fighter does get these for free whereas a wizard would have to pay for them with feat selections. This should be taken into consideration when comparing the fighter with the wizard correct? If you had a class that was identical to a wizard in every aspect except for weapon and armor proficiency wouldn't you raise an eyebrow?

I mean, sheesh, are we saying that a wizard who has one level of Outsider HD has a "free feat" because the larger HD gives him the same bonus that Toughness would?

You would say this, which is why you have to pay for it in ECL.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Psion Powers Known: 36 total.
Sorceror Spells Known: 34, excluding 0 lvl spells. 43, Including.
(Repeat after me. "The Sorceror is jacked because hes an attempt to spot-weld spontaneous casting onto a Vancian system". Add a side note of 'Alot of Psionic fans are psionic fans not because they like brain-melting, but because they like spontaneous casting, and the Sorceror is jacked. The sorceror is so jacked that the psi-fans are willing to give up full-progression PRCs with no class featuers to loose, and no-save-just-dies to get away from the stupidity that is a spontaneous caster being out of magic missiles but having a quiver of Meteor Swarms in his hands.")
(Mind you, the new, PHB2, looses-the-familiar-for-metamagic Sorceror.. is somewhat less jacked... and a better user of metamagic than the Psion, in some ways)


RE: A common tactic for defeating low and mid level wizards...
-I always found it sufficient to simply close and munch the low to mid level wizard, with whatever baddy bruiser was willing to charge past the fighter. By 8-10, the Wizard should have immunized himself from such tactics in any one of a lot of ways.
-Now, I'm not agreeing that this isnt an advantage to the Psion.. I just dont see it as a huge one. Lets face it, if every Wizard was taking still, silent, etc and apply them to every spell because they were all that great, then giving them to the Psion for free would be a huge issue.

I dont think Ive seen more than a very tiny handful of players take and use these feats. There are simply better ways to accomplish the goal (Ring of Free Action!) and those ways are as likely to be used by the Psion as the Wizard (thus reducing the opportunity cost arguement)

RE: A Wizard with Heavy Armor and All Martial Weapons Proficiencies
Actually, I pity the fool who trades any of their wizards feats for these stinkers. Their low value to the character in question.. about on par with the aformentioned psion abilities.

RE: Outsider HD.
Thank you for that example of how little value some feats have compared to caster levels/caster power. Lets face it.. the guy who takes an ECL hit for toughness? Thats a heckva sacrifice.


Side Note:
Can I get the 'Arcane is fine, psionics is broken' Crowd to comment on the 'No save Just Die' difference?

 

[IcyCool]

See, I disagree inasmuch as Psionics was brought into 3.5 in a 'Core+Complete' Environment... several Complete books were already out, and more were in the works.

Well, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine (I think) were out. I've got no problem comparing based on Core + those two. I'll not bother discussing how "balanced" Psionics is against the Orb spells, or any Forgotten Realms material when I think/know that those things are broken.

And a powerful card? It would be a nigh overwelming one, because the SRD is the -weakest- Arcane magic ever, ever got...

Well, then, why don't you just list the broken things from the supplemental material you want to use, and we can discuss the "balance" of those items? That way, once we are agreed on what is and isn't balanced, we'll have a mutually acceptable baseline for a Psionics balance discussion.

I've rarely seen anyone find something in the Core unbalanced (save one or two spells, and the whole Psionics debacle). I honestly don't see why using Core as a baseline is a bad thing, unless you are after a few broken tactics from supplemental books to prove your point. Trust me, if you need to rely on that to prove your arguement, it's already "gimped".

Besides, Core+Complete seems to be the closest thing to a 'baseline game' that you often see... I cant recall the last Core-only game in my area, and alot of GMs still frown on things beyond complete (Faerun, I'm lookin at you, ya monkey!)... but pretty much everyone considers the Complete series to be fare game. Thats just my experience.

Mine is different, and the next poster will likely tell you the same. But I'll bet you that all of those games at least use the Core (with "psionics" as a possible exception). With the complaints in this thread of "bias" and "personal experiences" coloring the perceptions of people regarding psioncs, I find it odd that you don't want to use the only guaranteed common ground as your comparison point. Why? (And, I hope you'll realize, simply stating "because Arcane magic is weakest in the Core" is as valid a point as "psionics is broken because I made an overpowered character with it one time.")

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Well, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine (I think) were out. I've got no problem comparing based on Core + those two. I'll not bother discussing how "balanced" Psionics is against the Orb spells, or any Forgotten Realms material when I think/know that those things are broken.



Well, then, why don't you just list the broken things from the supplemental material you want to use, and we can discuss the "balance" of those items? That way, once we are agreed on what is and isn't balanced, we'll have a mutually acceptable baseline for a Psionics balance discussion.

I've rarely seen anyone find something in the Core unbalanced (save one or two spells, and the whole Psionics debacle). I honestly don't see why using Core as a baseline is a bad thing, unless you are after a few broken tactics from supplemental books to prove your point. Trust me, if you need to rely on that to prove your arguement, it's already "gimped".



Mine is different, and the next poster will likely tell you the same. But I'll bet you that all of those games at least use the Core (with "psionics" as a possible exception). With the complaints in this thread of "bias" and "personal experiences" coloring the perceptions of people regarding psioncs, I find it odd that you don't want to use the only guaranteed common ground as your comparison point. Why? (And, I hope you'll realize, simply stating "because Arcane magic is weakest in the Core" is as valid a point as "psionics is broken because I made an overpowered character with it one time.")

**EDIT LONG POST**

So your conceeding that outside pure, Core Arcane magic, as published, is superior to Psionics?

Mind you, -I- suggested complete+SRD as a generous compromise to the opposing position (because we both know who wins if its 'All of 3.5', and it aint you). Generosity in debate has its limits, and thats mine. Im contending that out of all of 3.5, I -only- need the SRD+Complete to pull off a decisive, non-debateable, not-even-interesting victory for the superiority of Arcane casting.

I, personally, think its alot closer in the SRD, but still advantage Arcane. However, I feel it is too close to be subject to the kind of overwelming, soul-crushing, counterarguement-annulling, on-the-face-of-it-blatant proof that it would take to budge the people who have decided psionics is "Bad, all bad, all ways bad, forever bad, Ho!".

I'll reiterate a prior question, out of pure personal curiosity... Creationist or Evolutionist, which are you?

 

[wildstarsreach]

When we finish this campaign around 21st to 23rd level, takasi said he will be running another campaign. Since it is on Eberron, it will be core plus Eberron. We will get as a choice to unlock one non-core thing per level whether spell/feat/PrC/ect. I intend to run a human Erudite whom I think is potentially more broken than the Psion to level 20. 40 powers plus upto 11 unique/restricted powers. Again, I am taking this class to refine my opinions that fundamentally there are problems with Psionics that need addressing.

My conclusions are based on four things, one, my experience to date with my current character, second, my projections withbuilding alternatecharacters and seeing what they could have done in the same situation as the current character, three, talking over with my group the impressions that they have and four, putting info onto this list and evaluating those responses.

Not all things in psionics are broken but I have pointed out the things that are most glaring to me as problems in which fine tuning is needed.

 

[Tikiman]

If you have a degree in "logic" (by which you mean what, a math concentration?) then you ought to know that anecdotal evidence means very little in these sorts of situations. There are way too many variables in people's subjective experience for any single person's experience saying "Psionics is broken" to mean anything on its own.

May I give you a hug? How about a nice batch of cookies?

Well there's your answer: the Forgotten Realms are broken.

Oh don't get me started on Forgotten Realms material. One of my players made an Elminster wanna-be once and I actually burned his character sheet right in front of him. Everyone else at the table said 'we told you so'.

With an arcane/divine caster I can ready an action to damage them when they cast. With a psion I can't do this. Silent manifestation is a very easy concentration check and it bugs me to no end. Personally I'd like to see silent manifestation "nerfed" in my games, but I'd like to see what others have to say first.

Actually, even if a psion hides his displays he still provokes attacks of opportunity and opponents can still ready an action against him. True, he doesn't have ectoplasm shooting out his wazoo, but he does look like his bowels are moving violently. In the heat of combat if you stop and stand still for more then a second it's an obvious opening. In addition, there aren't actually any rules for what happens when a psion hides his displays, so the DM has 100% freedom to interpret the situation as he sees fit. If the player was clever and stood in a crowded place with a hood on while making a hide/bluff check, you should reward him for his efforts, but if he just stands in front of the guy and manifests feel free to smack him around. And note that however you rule on this situation will pertain to Spell-like abilities (which are another instance of componentless casting).

I think the closes thing to official rules for what happens when you cast/manifest without components is that it enforces a -10 penalty to opponents spellcraft checks. That's it.

Also, what house rules have players adapted for psionics in general? Why do you use them?

I ban Metamorphosis (and Polymorph, not Baleful though). The ability is just plain broken. I attach a 10xp/round gained cost to Temporal Acceleration to prevent abuse and make it a 'oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die' power. I make Psychic Reformation a DM only power (I just stole it and use it as my respec system for new players). I don't use ANY of the Dominate errata (and in fact use it as a template for the arcane version).

One of the more important houserules I have is that I limit the amount of PP people are allowed to spend in combats from time to time. The general formula is 20% + 10% for every CR the encounter is above the party. This is highly useful if I don't feel like throwing 3-4 encounters at the party per rest cycle. I do similar for arcane/divine casters (I have little note cards that say 'you may use 1 Xth, 1 Yth, and 2 Zth level spells this combat').

And, as I have done for all my games, at all tables, for all characters, ever since 2nd edition, I require that non-core material be subject to balancing well before gameplay. If you want to use spell/feat X from Complete Garbage, you have to run it past me at least 24 hours before you plan on using it.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

Well, considering that your going for broken, I have every faith in your ability to acheive it.
I have less faith in what it will prove.. but whatever you and your fellow players enjoy!

 

[takasi]

"The Sorceror is jacked because hes an attempt to spot-weld spontaneous casting onto a Vancian system".

Can we agree then that the assertion that psions are balanced because they have fewer powers known is unfounded?

RE: A common tactic for defeating low and mid level wizards...
-I always found it sufficient to simply close and munch the low to mid level wizard, with whatever baddy bruiser was willing to charge past the fighter. By 8-10, the Wizard should have immunized himself from such tactics in any one of a lot of ways.

How is he completely immune to this? Freedom of movement, using up a 4th lvl slot? This can be dispelled. A ring of fom? Why should the psion get this for free? Buffs can be dispelled, but the psion is always immune to this tactic. Why? Where is the drawback?

-Now, I'm not agreeing that this isnt an advantage to the Psion.. I just dont see it as a huge one. Lets face it, if every Wizard was taking still, silent, etc and apply them to every spell because they were all that great, then giving them to the Psion for free would be a huge issue.

Arcane casters don't take this because there is a cost involved: higher level spell slots AND feat slots. This doesn't make the ability bad; the ability is great, it's just not worth the high cost.

Don't forget the most important benefit to having a simultaneously Stilled, Silent spells with eschew materials (3 free feats and 2 spell slots for the psion): interruptions. You cannot ready actions against psions. This is a significant advantage and I don't see the drawback for this.

RE: A Wizard with Heavy Armor and All Martial Weapons Proficiencies Actually, I pity the fool who trades any of their wizards feats for these stinkers. Their low value to the character in question.. about on par with the aformentioned psion abilities.

It's not a trade we're talking about here. I said if they were identical, except one class had the feature for free. What's the purpose of the advantage?

RE: Outsider HD.
Thank you for that example of how little value some feats have compared to caster levels/caster power. Lets face it.. the guy who takes an ECL hit for toughness? Thats a heckva sacrifice.

It's still an advantage that needs to be balanced. Would you give them a level of outsider for free?

Side Note:
Can I get the 'Arcane is fine, psionics is broken' Crowd to comment on the 'No save Just Die' difference?

Can you name a few of these spells so we can discuss them?

Most of them are "HD = caster level - 10", and the vast majority of encounters in published sources do not involve creatures that are 10 HD below the party.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

May I give you a hug? How about a nice batch of cookies?


Oh don't get me started on Forgotten Realms material. One of my players made an Elminster wanna-be once and I actually burned his character sheet right in front of him. Everyone else at the table said 'we told you so'.


Actually, even if a psion hides his displays he still provokes attacks of opportunity and opponents can still ready an action against him. True, he doesn't have ectoplasm shooting out his wazoo, but he does look like his bowels are moving violently. In the heat of combat if you stop and stand still for more then a second it's an obvious opening. In addition, there aren't actually any rules for what happens when a psion hides his displays, so the DM has 100% freedom to interpret the situation as he sees fit. If the player was clever and stood in a crowded place with a hood on while making a hide/bluff check, you should reward him for his efforts, but if he just stands in front of the guy and manifests feel free to smack him around. And note that however you rule on this situation will pertain to Spell-like abilities (which are another instance of componentless casting).

I think the closes thing to official rules for what happens when you cast/manifest without components is that it enforces a -10 penalty to opponents spellcraft checks. That's it.


I ban Metamorphosis (and Polymorph, not Baleful though). The ability is just plain broken. I attach a 10xp/round gained cost to Temporal Acceleration to prevent abuse and make it a 'oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die' power. I make Psychic Reformation a DM only power (I just stole it and use it as my respec system for new players). I don't use ANY of the Dominate errata (and in fact use it as a template for the arcane version).

One of the more important houserules I have is that I limit the amount of PP people are allowed to spend in combats from time to time. The general formula is 20% + 10% for every CR the encounter is above the party. This is highly useful if I don't feel like throwing 3-4 encounters at the party per rest cycle. I do similar for arcane/divine casters (I have little note cards that say 'you may use 1 Xth, 1 Yth, and 2 Zth level spells this combat').

And, as I have done for all my games, at all tables, for all characters, ever since 2nd edition, I require that non-core material be subject to balancing well before gameplay. If you want to use spell/feat X from Complete Garbage, you have to run it past me at least 24 hours before you plan on using it.

Taraxia, Takasi, Tikiman... Its getting to where I need a play card to know which of you to flame when I see you posting. Seriously though, its kinda nice.. forces me to assess posts, and not posters.

One question.. do you find that the 10xp/rnd thing AND the "X % of Resources-per-fight' thing are necessary at the same time? While Ive considered a self-imposed XP cost on Temp. Acceleration (so that I dont feel dirty taking it... I used to have Metamorphosis and reformed it away last level gain, because its just that whacked...), with a hard cap of PsPs-per-round, it seems that Temp. Accel. would mostly loose its point (cause your going to blow right past that hard cap headed north before you really start to pay for using it... mostly, its just going to be points of that cap that cant go into effect)

One interseting side-light is the Tome of Battle stuff.. with the sword-magic-folks going to a 'Per-Fight' rather than a 'Per-Day' paradigm, I've been wondering what D+D would look like rebalanced around a 'per fight' paradigm. Move away from grinding down even-CR encounters and retreating to recharge, to a little more direct heroism, and retreating when the sun goes down or when you get seriously overextended. My concern would of course be the vast increase in character mortality... but its still a thought.

Additional side-thought... Hmm... maybe juggle Psionics so that your 'per fight' expenditure is 20% of your 'list total', and then put a HP burn (like ability burn, but maybe-worth-actually-doing) to go above that (of course, no burning temp HPs, friends HPs, healed HPs, healble HPs, etc)... with full recharges between fights. Maybe do something similar with the Arcanists, etc. Might be intersting.. wed limit the impact of the Per-Day guys, to help balance their impact with the poor every-round bastards... though the implications for repeated, out of combat use of certain powers might be iffy. Okay, back on topic!