Why should Clerics be better than Wizards in Item creation?

[hong]

I don't think a cleric can use Miracle to create, for example, a wand of fireball.

To create the item, you have to have prepared the spell in question in one of your slots. Miracle enables you to cast the spell, not prepare it.

If this were true, sorcs and bards wouldn't be able to create items at all. The requirement is to be able to cast the spell each day that the item is under construction. If you want to use wish or miracle to supply a prereq, you would need to cast it every day of the process.

 

[Number47]

So your cleric wants to make a Ring of Jumping. Clerics can't cast Jump. So he uses Miracle instead. How broken! Except, of course, that your cleric is going to have base his cost on a ninth-level spell and seventeenth level caster. A lot more expensive, a lot more XP. But hey, if he wants to use a ninth-level spell to recreate Wizard items, go for it.

 

[Greatwyrm]

So your cleric wants to make a Ring of Jumping. Clerics can't cast Jump. So he uses Miracle instead. How broken! Except, of course, that your cleric is going to have base his cost on a ninth-level spell and seventeenth level caster. A lot more expensive, a lot more XP. But hey, if he wants to use a ninth-level spell to recreate Wizard items, go for it.

If he was embedding Wish in the ring, I'd agree with you. But for Jump, why would he need the extra cost?

 

[Li Shenron]

Thank you everyone for posting on this thread!

for Bastoche:
it seems that in my group the Cleric is the most wanted Class! But I stressed the facts that a party must be most of all balanced (and that Good and Evil Clerics don't get along well), and so they are just a couple at the end

I think that a spell required to craft a magic item can be provided in very many ways, not only by preparing it, but also using scrolls, wands or staves, and of course also with a Limited Wish / Wish or Miracle. It is not very handy, since it requires anyway to be 17th level (18th for a Sorcerer - 13th/14th for Limited Wish) and spells over 7th level cannot be replicated by anything. But Clerics are in a better position anyway, both because Wish doesn't replicate over 6th and because Wish costs 5000xp and Miracle not. And don't forget that Wizards have to spend gp to learn new spells.

Of course you can be aided to provide spells by someone else, my discussion was intended to focus on the single PC's abilities (of course, in practice it is levelled by cohoperation). But in my opinion it is still the Wizard who should be able to do a lot counting only on himself. Am I biased?
Anyway, there are a lot of items that require both Arcane & Divine spells, so they do need or cohoperation or being multiclassed.

BTW, does anybody know how to post I file on a thread? I have this excel file with items and requirements and someone might wish to use it (although it is far uncomplete...).

 

[reapersaurus]

Any suggestion or consideration to help me heighten the importance of Wizards in item creations?

I think you're looking at it with a microscope and missing the entire picture.

It doesn't really matter whether the spell can be cast by the mage creating the item.
They have an entire table (money for an NPC to cast a spell) that is for these situations where the item-creator does not have the spell in his or her spell list.

I can easily imagine a barter system for higher-level mages who want to create magic items.
You cast this spell for me, and I'll cast one for you later...

 

[HeavyG]

If this were true, sorcs and bards wouldn't be able to create items at all. The requirement is to be able to cast the spell each day that the item is under construction. If you want to use wish or miracle to supply a prereq, you would need to cast it every day of the process.

*sigh*

Instead of nitpicking my explanation and extrapolating dubious conclusions, you might try checking the books.

SRD : Creating Wands

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spell requires.

SRD : Creating Wonderous (their mistake, not mine ) items

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.

SRD : Creating Armor

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require

Need I go on ?



Miracle doesn't let you prepare the spell so you can't use it to create wizard items.

And your comment had nothing to do with this situation anyway because clerics aren't spontaneous casters.

 

[HeavyG]

I think that a spell required to craft a magic item can be provided in very many ways, not only by preparing it, but also using scrolls, wands or staves, and of course also with a Limited Wish / Wish or Miracle.

See my quotes above. As far as I know, you can't do this. If there's some rule somewhere that lets you, please tell me where because I'm really curious.

 

[hong]

[snip ramble]

Need I go on ?

Yes. Since you're on a quoting spree at the moment, you might also want to have a look at the DMG, p.178: "Note that a spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell-like effect".

If it's possible to use scrolls and other such devices to provide the required spells, I see no major contradiction in using wish or miracle to do the same. It may cost a bit, but that's another matter.

Miracle doesn't let you prepare the spell so you can't use it to create wizard items.

There's no such thing as a "wizard item". There are magic items which have prerequisites, and these prerequisites can be met in a variety of ways.

And your comment had nothing to do with this situation anyway because clerics aren't spontaneous casters.

Your point being?

 

[HeavyG]

Your point being?

My point being that you should have quoted the relevant part of the DMG from the start instead of picking apart an already incomplete answer.

 

[hong]

My point being that you should have quoted the relevant part of the DMG from the start instead of picking apart an already incomplete answer.

You misspelled "wrong answer". Hope this helps!