D&D 5E Why Should I Allow Feats

[pming]

Hiya!

We had 2 campaigns running and we made it to level 12. I have made the decision to start over at level 1 which the players will find out about at today's session. THe reason was their power level outstripped my ability or willingness to put up with the antics. I have 2 PCs with the sharpshooter feat and one of them has the crossbow expert feat. One is a ranger, the crossbow expert is a fighter.

The Cleric buffs them of course using bless and she has the alert feat (+5 initiative, can't be surprised) and the warcaster feat which makes breaking concentration difficult. Because ACs do not scale very well in this game both archers are more or less using powershot 100% of the time.

Fighter 4 attacks for 1d6+16 damage (+1 hand crossbow), action surge 7 attacks 1d6+16.
Ranger 2 attacks 1d8+1d6+17 damage (+2 bow)+1d8 colossus slayer on one attack.

Advantage is often supplied in various ways via spells or shield bash fighter. Basically they slaughter everything and I have spent the last 4 levels trying to figure out how to run encounters with mixed levels of success. They have slaughtered mobs, dragons, ranged combats, surprise rounds and Dragons of +6 CR above their level (twice).

The main offenders are the sharpshooter feats and in the other game Great Weapon Master feats as it is not that hard to offset the -5 to hit part of the feat. Polearm Masater is another semi borked feat that also combos with Great Weapon Master and Crossbow Expert is also borked.

So start over at level 1 no variant humans allowed, and very tempted to not use feats either.

I'm confused as to how the fighter is getting 4 attacks at 1d6+16. I see the 3 attacks, plus 1 attack with the hand crossbow. Not a problem. But where is this "+16 damage" coming from? I mean, even with a 20 STR and a +3 weapon we're "only" at +8 damage. ??? Pretty much the same with the Ranger. Can you supply a bit more numerical information...I have a heavy suspicion that you guys are reading something wrong...

Crossbow Expert: No bonus to damage; just a free attack with your hand crossbow.
Great Weapon Master: A +10 damage bonus at a -5 to hit penalty...with HEAVY WEAPONS ONLY (meaning 2-handed, as all Heavy weapons also have Two-Handed trait).
Polearm Master: The only catch to this one is that it, for some ungodly reason, lists "Quarterstaff" as a polearm ( I have no idea where they got that; and using a staff with one hand basically means you are using a big stick to whack something; in my game, Quarterstaff is not a polearm...maybe this is your problem? If so, just say Quarterstaff isn't a polearm).
Sharpshooter: I find the lack of "listed weapons" the main culprit. They specifically name "Polearms", but here they just say "ANY ranged weapon". Maybe this is what your fighter is attacking with (Hand Crossbow)? In this case he would get his full 4 attacks (3 + 1 for Crossbow Expert), using Sharpshooter, to get the +10 damage. However, that -5 is a pretty big adjustment. Assuming the fighter has a 20 DEX (+5), his level only gives +4...so he's basically making an attack at +4. That's good, but not great, and a lot of attacks will miss creatures with ok AC's (15 or higher, basically).

Anyway, we are testing feats still (we, my group and I, have played 3.x and PF in the past, and the whole "Feats" aspect was universally loathed). We have noticed that the Rogue(Thief) with Crossbow Expert is a killing machine (they just got to 4th level a couple sessions ago)...which is making all of us uncomfortable, as the hulking Wyr Paladin (homebrew world; Wyr basically is a lizard/dragon-man) is lucky to get 10 points of damage in a round. The Rogue(Thief) is almost always doing at least 10 points of damage per round (rapier attack, hand crossbow attack, plus potential sneak attack). I have some house-rules in the works for a few of the things we don't like...and Feats is high on the list.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[BASHMAN]

Why not give them a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

Seriously as a player, this kind of thing would spoil the game for me. All characters being from a cookie cutter isn't my thing. Feats allow you to customize much more and give your character his/her own schtick that can make them stand out more. It is one of the things that makes the game more fun for me. Making me start over and say "oh and no more feats" would be like kicking my legs out from under me. I would interpret it with a subtext of "I'm tired of the PCs winning. I the DM want to WIN, and to do this I want to make your character suck so I can". That probably isn't your intent, but as a player, that is how I'd interpret it. I'd be tempted to quit, honestly, because I'd interpret it as the DM picking on us, even if that isn't the intent.

Instead of making them all start over at level 1, why not ask someone else to take over GMing for a while and take a turn playing for a change? Maybe it is just DM burn-out.

 

[fjw70]

I don't use feats when playing with the kids and I don't miss them one bit. If I restart my adult 5e game I am seriously considering no feats. I am looking for simpler gaming in my life right now.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Because for the first time since WotC took over D&D, feats appear not to have been made from cancer cells and tanar'ri scat?

 

[trentonjoe]

Fighter 4 attacks for 1d6+16 damage (+1 hand crossbow), action surge 7 attacks 1d6+16.
Ranger 2 attacks 1d8+1d6+17 damage (+2 bow)+1d8 colossus slayer on one attack.

What is their to hit? +10ish?

 

[Zardnaar]

What is their to hit? +10ish?

+12 and +13+bless more often than not.

+4 prof
+5 dex
+2 archery style

+1 or +2 weapon.

The +10 damage is from the sharpshooter feat.

 

[Zardnaar]

Why not give them a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

Seriously as a player, this kind of thing would spoil the game for me. All characters being from a cookie cutter isn't my thing. Feats allow you to customize much more and give your character his/her own schtick that can make them stand out more. It is one of the things that makes the game more fun for me. Making me start over and say "oh and no more feats" would be like kicking my legs out from under me. I would interpret it with a subtext of "I'm tired of the PCs winning. I the DM want to WIN, and to do this I want to make your character suck so I can". That probably isn't your intent, but as a player, that is how I'd interpret it. I'd be tempted to quit, honestly, because I'd interpret it as the DM picking on us, even if that isn't the intent.

Instead of making them all start over at level 1, why not ask someone else to take over GMing for a while and take a turn playing for a change? Maybe it is just DM burn-out.

Option B is don't play anything at all. Its got to the point where I do not want to DM anymore with these PCs due to the min maxing that has gone on. I'm not really in the mood ATM due to RL issues to spend the time designing adventures for them and would prefer a lower powered campaign. I also do not really have the time to design adventures to accommodate the level of power they do have. Basically I can spend hours designing something or go play Europa Unversalis IV or Crusader Kings II instead.

 

[Cernor]

I'm curious as to why you think the Polearm Master feat is broken. It gives a marginal damage increase at the cost of your bonus action, and lets you make a few more opportunity attacks... It isn't bad, but neither is it exceptional.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm curious as to why you think the Polearm Master feat is broken. It gives a marginal damage increase at the cost of your bonus action, and lets you make a few more opportunity attacks... It isn't bad, but neither is it exceptional.

Combines with great weapon master so you get an extra attack and can get +10 damage on all attacks which is 40 more damage at level 11. Throw greater invisibility on said PC or use spells like faerie fire and with the AoE you often pick up via 10' threatening reach and/or cleave and it is +50 damage per round and the 1d4/1d10+5 or so off the extra attack. At level 17 you can stick foresight on the PC as well but even at lower levels those 2 feats are wrecking house.

The Half Orc champion using a great axe with great weapon master is bad enough the polearm one is even worse.

Polearm fighter can end up looking something like this.

1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d4+15 or 1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15 average DPR 102.5

And then they can action surge as well.

1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15, 1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15/1d10+15 average DPR 184.5

At level 11.


Yes I have seen great weapon fighters with greater invisability on them.

 

[Ashrym]

Zard, the only reason to allow feats in the first place is to increase customization options. The game functions with or without them just fine, but there is an inherent increase in system mastery as options increase for optimizers. 5e is more geared towards group optimization than individual optimization, in my opinion, but individual and group optimizing will occur.

Run games without feats if you prefer and the game still works. -5/+10 really kind of sucks for the cost of a feat without the accuracy enhancements to offset them and bonus attacks to really take advantage of that bonus so I keep them as is. Multi-classing is something I prefer to disallow for similar reasons, however. ;-)

Fortunately, feats are in short supply and archery fighting style has limited access. Taking damage feats because MOAR DPR means giving up better utility or defense or ability scores that improve offense, defense, and utility. There are quite a few good feats that are not damage feats lost to opportunity costs because of ability score increases and damage feats, and while it's easy to compare damage for a feat to damage for not having that feat it's harder to compare damage for a feat to living longer or increase versatility for having a different feat because it's more apples to oranges. Those damage feats are for damage builds. It's not really an issue for the game if damage is what players focus on because they like bigger numbers more than alternative benefits.

Just my 2 cents. As stated above, the only reason to allow feats is for increased options and customization. They're optional to begin with and not all feats need to be allowed even if some are.