Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Arnwyn]

You are imposing modern Western ideals on a rough and tumble fantasy world.

And there's nothing wrong with doing so, BTW. (And, in fact, I'd recommend doing just that to those who don't know and/or care about historical law and societal norms in England in the xth century when playing an entirely made up fantasy world.)

Needless to say, some lame "amateur historian" trying to tell us what should happen in our fantasy world would quickly be deemed an annoying git and tossed out on his ear. But that's just us. [Not saying anyone here would ever dream of doing such a thing.]

 

[Simm]

Just to add fuel to the argument I looked up The Decalogue- The ten commandments of the knightly code of chivalry:

1. Thou shalt believe all that the church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
2. Thou shalt defend the church.
3. Thou shalt respect all weakness, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
4. Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
5. Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
6. Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
7. Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of god.
8. Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pleged word.
9. Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.
10. Thou shalt be everywhere and always a champion of the right and good against injustice and evil.

It seem pretty close to what a paladin should be.

 

[DM_Matt]

In my experience, the Paladin, for all it's 'Lawful Good' nature, ends up being a completely selfish class, as the entire party is now expected to abide by the RP restrictions of one of it's members, for which they really don't gain anything special to make it 'worth' having to rein in their own role-playing and combat tactics to risk offending Polly Pureheart.

While I am all for allowing "Kill Orc Babies for Jesus" Paladins, the solution to this would be to allow the BOED. If they have to be goody-two-shoes' anyway, they can at least get some really powerful bennies as well.

 

[Storyteller01]

Not sure if this is relevant, but it seems the discussion is getting dangerously close to arguements between religion. I'm game, but I don't think the board is.


As for playing a paladin stupidly hard (hoping none of those were aimed at me ), it depends on how you play. In DS, paladins are special forces, internal affairs, combat medics, and hostage rescue.

In Forgotten Realms, especially in Water Deep, too many evil folks are in an area with legitimate purpose. Running around smiting every evil business man will get YOU in trouble, although you might get an otherwise lighter sentence. I'm sure the same can be said for Eborron, if it has paladins. Not so good adventurer's can be hired in Thay to deal with 'those damned holy terrorists.'

I may play them hard, but the players know what to expect ahead of time. I don't throw dilemmas at them that they can't handle, but they can't go around screaming 'I killi it!' without justification first.

Moving on :

In the adventure, it was proposed (in the published adveture mind you, not my slant on it) that if you were a nice DM you can tell them about the Sense Motive Roll, otherwise the characters have to figure it out for themselves. If you don't figure it out in time, the baby crys, wakes up mom who also screams and you now have to deal with 60 goblins.

While I would suggest the roll, I'd let them see if they can figure it out for themselves first (giving the appropriate clues; red gums, few teeth, etc).

 

[Storyteller01]

While I am all for allowing "Kill Orc Babies for Jesus" Paladins, the solution to this would be to allow the BOED. If they have to be goody-two-shoes' anyway, they can at least get some really powerful bennies as well.

As long as they don't try to use VoP.

 

[Storyteller01]

Why would a Paladin shy away from fighting evil goblins? He'd mow em all down .. just kidding.

They have an ettin sleeping near by.

Isn't the Paladin breaking and entering, though? A big no-no .. kidding again

It was in ruins, amongst a destroyed castle stolen from dwarves. And it was a hostage situation

Sooo .. my real answer is:
Smack the baby with a subdual strike. Flat of the blade or fist, boot, etc.

Which could kill the kid anyway. Subdual damage will convert to lethal damage after it loses its one hit point.

 

[Storyteller01]

Well, I can think of as many reasons as there are paladin class abilities.

Jokes aside, I agree there should be a moral dimension to playing a paladin. What I take issue with is that many of the "moral challenges" faced by a paladin have no upside, only a downside. When the paladin does the right thing, it is only expected, but when he doesn't do the right thing, it's atonement time.

That's where the rping comes in. Being a representitive of the church, a paladin can expect help (and free, in most regards) from the church. Why pay for an inn when the church will house you for free? The church may provide items at a discount.

Then there are the advantages gianed that would be campaign specific. A criminal may be willing to talk to only you, since he knows you won't slit his throat later (bonus to the appropriate rolls).

Just because there isn't a delimiated core mechaniucal advantage doesn't mean one can't be added.

 

[FireLance]

Sooo .. my real answer is:
Smack the baby with a subdual strike. Flat of the blade or fist, boot, etc.

Which could kill the kid anyway. Subdual damage will convert to lethal damage after it loses its one hit point.

Not to get all rules-lawyerly about it, but nonlethal damage doesn't convert to lethal damage in 3.5e.

 

[FireLance]

Just because there isn't a delimiated core mechaniucal advantage doesn't mean one can't be added.

Agreed, and that's one of the questions I was asking in this thread: if you hold palaldins to a very high standard of behavior, what advantages do you give to them to balance it out?

 

[el-remmen]

Not to get all rules-lawyerly about it, but nonlethal damage doesn't convert to lethal damage in 3.5e.

Then how do you beat someone to death?