Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Vocenoctum]

Now, there are a couple of things that make this a touch more palatable IMC. Orcs, et.al., arise through spontaineous generation rather than sexual reproduction. Orcs facilitate this by excavating large pits that they fill with rotting meat, offal, clay and assorted filth and waste seeded with a couple of orc carcasses. Their young arise out of this mixture like maggots out of rotting meat. So, there really aren't any cute little green orc "babies". They are infantile in mind for the first year, and grow rapidly on a diet of meat. You don't wanna know what's swimming in the pit.

Mmmm, full of yummy goodness. Though now I've got this image of the worst crime an orc can commit... going vegen...

I don't go as far as that, though I rarely use humanoid tribes either way. I tend to present monsters in a situation where there is little immediate question of morality involved. An orc horde screaming across the landscape or a lair populated by a traveling band (no kids involved).

My campaigns do deal with moral issues in ways, but the monsters themselves are generally not moral issues themselves. The current campaign, the players will be able to influence whether Thrane returns to a secular government or remains Silver Flame controlled, so there are implications beyond just gacking the big bad, but both ways have benefits and drawbacks.

 

[tsadkiel]

Why would any town want to assimilate evil orcs? And fat chance with those half-orcs if the orcs are female .. ain't that much booze in the world!

This is the internet. We're surrounded by proof that people have . . . varying tastes.

 

[Storyteller01]

Sure. Not a problem. In fact, gutting the baby orc as well is not only prudent but encouraged as well. They are evil and irredeemable. Their infantile cries are a cruel mimicry designed to trick you in letting your guard down. Orcs know neither mercy or pity and do not deserve either.

1) Not dealing with orcs, we're dealing with goblins.

2) Goblins are listed in the MM as Mostly Neutral Evil. This means that they aren't irredeemable.

3) The original adventure clearly states that killing the babe is evil.

4) The adventure gave a much simpilier solution: give the baby something to chew on...

 

[delericho]

1) Not dealing with orcs, we're dealing with goblins.

2) Goblins are listed in the MM as Mostly Neutral Evil. This means that they aren't irredeemable.

Orcs are listed as "Mostly Chaotic Evil". Per the RAW, they're not irredeemable, either. However, he did mention that that was the case in his campaign.

3) The original adventure clearly states that killing the babe is evil.

4) The adventure gave a much simpilier solution: give the baby something to chew on...

FWIW, I agree with the original adventure. However, if you construct a setting where <insert race here> is irredeemably evil, then it's a rather different question. In that case, although it's unpalatable to me to off defenseless beings of any sort, the fact that they lack free will suggests that it's the right thing to do - in the same way that we would put down a dangerous dog.

 

[Kristivas]

Sure. Not a problem. In fact, gutting the baby orc as well is not only prudent but encouraged as well. They are evil and irredeemable. Their infantile cries are a cruel mimicry designed to trick you in letting your guard down. Orcs know neither mercy or pity and do not deserve either.

Now, there are a couple of things that make this a touch more palatable IMC. Orcs, et.al., arise through spontaineous generation rather than sexual reproduction. Orcs facilitate this by excavating large pits that they fill with rotting meat, offal, clay and assorted filth and waste seeded with a couple of orc carcasses. Their young arise out of this mixture like maggots out of rotting meat. So, there really aren't any cute little green orc "babies". They are infantile in mind for the first year, and grow rapidly on a diet of meat. You don't wanna know what's swimming in the pit.

Other campaigns I have been in have shared this philosophy, although they didn't got to the same lengths I did to remove any traces of guilt from modern-minded players.

And that sounds like an awesome way to run a campaign. However, using the MM version of Orcs (or goblins, which is what we were talking about), they're not irredeemable thus murdering the infants of the species seems to me an evil act.

I guess it all comes down to how you run your games and what standards you hold your paladins to. Personally, I don't like letting them off the hook. Gutting baby goblins is the easy way to deal with the situation. While a chaotic good fighter might scurry around chopping their little heads off with glee for the "greater good", I can't even begin to picture this as a 'holy duty' of the paladin.

Of course, I don't like to nitpick every little scenario. Littering isn't an ability-losing offense. Baby-snuffing is. I think that's pretty cut and dry.

 

[mythusmage]

Because if it was easy everybody'd be doing it.

 

[Baron Opal]

And that sounds like an awesome way to run a campaign. However, using the MM version of Orcs (or goblins, which is what we were talking about), they're not irredeemable thus murdering the infants of the species seems to me an evil act.

Oops, I tend to conflate orcs and goblins for some reason. Actually, there's nothing that specifically says whether or not they are irredeemable. I agree that this could be implied from their alignment description.

Of course, I don't like to nitpick every little scenario. Littering isn't an ability-losing offense. Baby-snuffing is. I think that's pretty cut and dry.

I agree.

3) The original adventure clearly states that killing the babe is evil.

Why would a paladin lose their abilities and a LG cleric not lose their spells?

I am of the camp that it isn't any more difficult to play a paladin than a cleric of a LG god. A cleric of an LG god would lose their spells if they smushed the little green tyke, wouldn't they? It doesn't matter if the cleric is LN; he has chosen to follow an LG structure and alignment, there are just areas where the LN cleric is willing to look the other way.

 

[Storyteller01]

Why would a paladin lose their abilities and a LG cleric not lose their spells?

I never said an LG cleric wouldn't. The statement 'killing the baby goblin is evil' is directed at the entire party.

 

[Numion]

1) Not dealing with orcs, we're dealing with goblins.

What if we were dealing with Mind Flayers? Would those babies still have to be assimilated? There's no issue with females since mind flayers have no females.

3) The original adventure clearly states that killing the babe is evil.

4) The adventure gave a much simpilier solution: give the baby something to chew on...

IMO this sounds stupid. The adventure could state that eating an apple evil but it don't make it so. And I don't think adventures should include that kind of random neato solutions to events. "D'oh, of course the gelatinous cube just wanted Of no consequence to this thread, I know, but just wanted to point it out.

 

[Storyteller01]

What if we were dealing with Mind Flayers? Would those babies still have to be assimilated? There's no issue with females since mind flayers have no females.

They don't have children either. You'll find adult sized mind flayers and parasitic tadpoles. Paladins without the necessary knowledge will kill both. Those with that knowledge will kill both as well. Unlike the goblin, another sentient being HAS to die to create an illithid unless the campaign has them do otherwise.

IMO this sounds stupid. The adventure could state that eating an apple evil but it don't make it so. And I don't think adventures should include that kind of random neato solutions to events. "D'oh, of course the gelatinous cube just wanted Of no consequence to this thread, I know, but just wanted to point it out.

To each their own. It's not the only solution available, although such a method will get players thinking about non-linear answers to other situations.

Several posters have also agreed that killing the babe was an evil act. There's no reason the makers of the adventure wouldn't have done the same.