Why Should It Be Hard To Be A Paladin?

[Numion]

If it's Mother is dead, that's still a death sentence for the baby goblin.

That serial killer the Paladin put to sword in the last town was also a provider for his own family that's now starving. Abilities - YOINK!

 

[Kristivas]

That serial killer the Paladin put to sword in the last town was also a provider for his own family that's now starving. Abilities - YOINK!

How many people could honestly tell me that, in their games, it would be just fine for a paladin to gut a sleeping goblin-mother and walk off as the baby lays there crying, knowing that it's only fate is either to starve to death or be eaten by a wandering monster?

 

[Numion]

How many people could honestly tell me that, in their games, it would be just fine for a paladin to gut a sleeping goblin-mother and walk off as the baby lays there crying, knowing that it's only fate is either to starve to death or be eaten by a wandering monster?

No, the Paladin should also gut the toddler .. just kidding

Howabout: The same amount of people that would tell you it's okay to leave the serial killers family starving after he/she is put to sword?

I wouldn't completely agree with slaughtering the sleeping orcs in the first place, though. If the Paladin thought probable that he would have to fight them later, or sensed strong evil from them, then he should use the tactical advantage of killing them in their sleep. Most likely it's just waste of killing.

 

[Kristivas]

No, the Paladin should also gut the toddler .. just kidding

Howabout: The same amount of people that would tell you it's okay to leave the serial killers family starving after he/she is put to sword?

I wouldn't completely agree with slaughtering the sleeping orcs in the first place, though. If the Paladin thought probable that he would have to fight them later, or sensed strong evil from them, then he should use the tactical advantage of killing them in their sleep. Most likely it's just waste of killing.

I don't like to get all new-age with my paladins, but clearly it's their duty to protect the weak and innocent. A goblin baby would be the same as a human baby in that regard. The paladin might not even know about the serial killer's family, but the goblin baby is right there in front of his face.

 

[Quartz]

I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread, so my apologies if this has already been covered, but I'll just make one small point: if your DM is making it hard to play a paladin, then you're in the wrong game. It's a game; it's supposed to be fun.

 

[Numion]

I don't like to get all new-age with my paladins, but clearly it's their duty to protect the weak and innocent. A goblin baby would be the same as a human baby in that regard. The paladin might not even know about the serial killer's family, but the goblin baby is right there in front of his face.

That line of thinking will make the Paladin pretty inefficient, which would kinda negate the gods purpose for the Paladin. For example, if the Paladin is tasked with cleansing the land of an Orc tribe. He's up to the task and challenges the tribe to move or cry and move.

A fight ensues. The Paladin kills the tribes warriors to the last one - them being proud warriors, strangers to surrender. Now there's the woman and children. They're as good as dead, having no raiders and hunters to support them. The winter is coming.

The Paladin obviously did the right thing - killed the evil orc warriors who refused to relocate. But no he's condemned the woman and children to die.

I tried to make the example non-farfetched, but whats your opinion? What should've the Paladin do?

 

[Vocenoctum]

How many people could honestly tell me that, in their games, it would be just fine for a paladin to gut a sleeping goblin-mother and walk off as the baby lays there crying, knowing that it's only fate is either to starve to death or be eaten by a wandering monster?

If it comes to it, he can take them to an orphanage or likewise. It would certainly be better than leaving them to be raised in the Den of Evil. Either way, immediate needs are the hostages.

Also, why is it a death sentence for them? Was the whole tribe located in that place asleep all at once?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That line of thinking will make the Paladin pretty inefficient, which would kinda negate the gods purpose for the Paladin. For example, if the Paladin is tasked with cleansing the land of an Orc tribe. He's up to the task and challenges the tribe to move or cry and move.

A fight ensues. The Paladin kills the tribes warriors to the last one - them being proud warriors, strangers to surrender. Now there's the woman and children. They're as good as dead, having no raiders and hunters to support them. The winter is coming.

The Paladin obviously did the right thing - killed the evil orc warriors who refused to relocate. But no he's condemned the woman and children to die.

I tried to make the example non-farfetched, but whats your opinion? What should've the Paladin do?

Not go out of his way to kill them, but trust that if they deserve to live, they'll be taken care of by the same gods that tasked him with destroying the warriors. If orcs and goblins are just plain evil from birth, that's one thing. If they learn to be evil over time, it's another.

Also, a paladin might be waging a war of justice, but not one of goodness. It might be that the orcs are being pushed into finding new territory because their numbers have grown and so they need to expand. But expansion puts them at odds with human settlements. The humans have a right to the land, but the orcs are forced to invade it and do their orc business, which wouldn't be a problem if it were in the designated "orc territory." If orcs are recognized as controlling a bordered territory, it would be wrong to enter it to start slaying orcs without provocation. However, if the orcs invade human lands for whatever reason, justice demands they be stopped.

Stopping them isn't really a good or evil act. The orcs might not have any real malice against the humans. They just decided that the plot of land is theirs and everything in it belongs to them, because otherwise they'd starve...a position which is pretty much Neutral. The orcs in this example don't really care about hurting humans, but there are humans there, so too bad for them. So when they start raiding for food and goods, and the humans have to oppose them, it's not really a fight against evil. But it's something that a paladin would want to get involved with, because innocent humans are being attacked.

The point is, unless the paladin has a good reason to do otherwise, he should probably avoid killing those who can't defend themselves and who have not themselves committed acts that would warrant punishment. An orc child may be destined to become a despicable monster when he grows up, but he's not yet a monster, and so does not yet deserve punishment. Part of being a good guy is that you don't punish people for things they haven't done.

The paladin's job is to stop evil. If stopping evil means that some orcs are left without fathers, that's unfortunate, but the paladin is the sword-arm of good, and he knows that if the gods wanted him to stop evil without violently destroying it, they'd let him know.

 

[delericho]

That line of thinking will make the Paladin pretty inefficient, which would kinda negate the gods purpose for the Paladin. For example, if the Paladin is tasked with cleansing the land of an Orc tribe. He's up to the task and challenges the tribe to move or cry and move.

A fight ensues. The Paladin kills the tribes warriors to the last one - them being proud warriors, strangers to surrender. Now there's the woman and children. They're as good as dead, having no raiders and hunters to support them. The winter is coming.

Welcome to the world of complex moral dilemmas

In the real world, it's highly unlikely that the losers would fight to the last man, but would rather have some number of cowards who ran away, prudent shamans who knew when to abandon the fight, and others who just weren't involved for some reason. Plus, of course, the wounded who probably weren't killed, but weren't able to take further part in the fight.

Also, in the real world, in such a scenario it is likely that the women and children of the losing tribe would be assimilated into the winning tribe in some fashion, either as slaves, trophies, or wives.

The upshot of all that is that in the scenario as presented, I suspect the 'best' solution might lead to the lawful good paladin suddenly finding himself the owner of scores of orcish slaves!

The Paladin obviously did the right thing - killed the evil orc warriors who refused to relocate. But no he's condemned the woman and children to die.

Not necessarily. In the worst case, arm the women, and let them fend for themselves. If feeling particularly charitable, dispatch a force of riders to help protect and feed the orcs through the winter.

I tried to make the example non-farfetched, but whats your opinion? What should've the Paladin do?

It's really a tough situation. I think perhaps the best solution is to decimate the orcish warriors, but not wipe them out totally, and drive them to the point where they have to retreat or they'll be wiped out. Ideally, try to capture a shaman at some point in the conflict, and explain all that to him.

 

[Sejs]

Also, in the real world, in such a scenario it is likely that the women and children of the losing tribe would be assimilated into the winning tribe in some fashion, either as slaves, trophies, or wives.

Beat me to it, but yep. That is generally what would happen. Couple generations down the road and hey look, your town now has a small half-orc demographic!

Frankly, given how orc society normally works (believe that to survive they must conquer as much territory as possible, females treated as prized possessions at best, chattel at worst) in time those assimilated women and children may not mind it so much. The general dogma for female orcs runs along the lines of know your place, keep your head down, make the tribe strong from within, and endure hardships you face. All of that would translate well to integration, and several of their racial traits would make 'em valued in certain roles. +4 str and darkvision means those orcish women would make damn fine miners, for instance.

The other, and honestly a bit more boring, option would be that the surviving orcs from that tribe bugger off and end up getting integrated into another orc tribe somewhere.