D&D 5E Why stop at Level 20?

pogre

Legend
Why is there an assumed stopping place of level 20 in 5e?

- Does the math break?

- Nobody plays that long?

- Was it lesson learned from 4e?

- Casters' spell progressions?

I'm sure there are very concrete reasons WOTC went with level 20. I just wonder what they were. I'm genuinely curious.
 

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From what I recall, the possibility of continuing to very high levels was a thing in the very early editions, but eventually there was a consensus that 1-20 was where the game was the most fun.

It also seems likely to me that mortal heroes are much more compelling and relatable than living gods. If a level 20 character can take out a literal titan in two rounds, then there's not much more room to escalate from there. A story about one group of gods defying some other group of gods is like reading the Silmarillion instead of Lord of the Rings; there's just not as much of an audience for it.

One of the reasons why 4E was able to keep going until level 30, and honestly could have kept going beyond that, is because it ignored the logic of how powerful PCs and their enemies were supposed to be. Instead of the only level 23 monsters being titans and ancient dragons, you could just fight level 23 bandits and skeletons, which meant you could keep using the same adventure formula at high levels that worked so well at low levels.
 

schnee

First Post
Most people barely pass level 10, why spend effort that high?

Also, the other things you mention get crazy enough that it's hard to make content.

If anything, for all it's flaws, 4E fixed the problems learned from 3E regarding balance at high levels. It just did it in such a way that it didn't 'feel' like D&D to a pretty big and vocal part of the fanbase. Hence the entire 5E design process being about asking 'what feels like D&D'?
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
Tradition? I think that's where it stopped for every edition but 4e?

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Only 3e stopped at 20th. In 1e, Clerics and Magic-Users didn't get their complete complement of spells until 29th. Though the non-casters get very little after 21. Magic-User and Thief attack and saving throw charts top out at 21; everyone else hits max between 17-19 level. So non-caster is getting only a few (1-3) extra hit points per level.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
One of the reasons why 4E was able to keep going until level 30, and honestly could have kept going beyond that, is because it ignored the logic of how powerful PCs and their enemies were supposed to be. Instead of the only level 23 monsters being titans and ancient dragons, you could just fight level 23 bandits and skeletons, which meant you could keep using the same adventure formula at high levels that worked so well at low levels.

Your facts seem a bit skewed. You wouldn't face a bandit or skeleton at level 23 in 4e, it would be an astral reaver or a reanimated titan. This formula has existed and worked in every edition of D&D; at low levels you might fight bands of goblins whereas at high levels you are fighting bands of giants.

That said, most editions of D&D have placed the level cap at 20 (Basic D&D put it at 36, while 4e put it at 30). So, as others have said, there is a significant aspect of tradition.

I don't recall if 1e had them, but both 2e and 3e came out with expansion books that allowed you to exceed that cap. In 5e, epic boons appear intent to serve a similar purpose (also, while not official, I believe there are at least one or two epic level rules options on DMs Guild currently).

IMO, letting the numbers scale indefinitely would be counter to 5e's goal of bounded accuracy. If the numbers can get indefinitely big, then they cannot be said to be bounded.

Additionally, I believe the designers have stated that the majority of groups don't even make it to 20th level, so rules that would take you beyond this cap would have a very small target audience.
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
BECMI went to level 36 and even beyond; they had rules for advancing as gods (called Immortals) past that point.

The common refrain from publishers is that research shows levels 1-20 being where most players have the most fun.
 

Tallifer

Hero
Rolemaster (a 1980s D&D sort-of-clone) had spells up to 120th level I seem to recall. But even though we loved it, we never got past 10th level. I also loved 4th Edition, but I never saw a campaign reach Epic Level (21-30)
 


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