D&D 5E Why stop at Level 20?

[Tony Vargas]

Why is there an assumed stopping place of level 20 in 5e?

It's not assumed, progression just ends there. The assumed stopping place is the high end of the level range for published adventures, around 15.

- Does the math break?

No, the math in 5e is comparatively static. But it broke in 3.x, and the game broke in other ways prior to that, ways that 5e has returned to at least emulating for the sake of feel.

- Nobody plays that long?

You can never say 'nobody' on a forum, because some will feel compelled to present themselves as counterexamples.

In spite of that, yeah, higher level play is less common than lower level.

- Was it lesson learned from 4e?

In a sense. 4e was balanced and playable at all levels, in spite of having a pronounced progression. That (among many similar factors) produced a different feel from the traditional game, which contributed to the edition war.

- Casters' spell progressions?

Easy enough to extrapolate.

I'm sure there are very concrete reasons WOTC went with level 20. I just wonder what they were. I'm genuinely curious.

It's a nice, round number, and is what 3e went with. Really, it could have been any number much above 11, and been fine, from a playability point of view, but I suppose presenting 9th level spells pretymuch had to be done...

 

[Horwath]

You can level past level 20.

Just not in a single class.

Think about 20th level as in martial arts Black belt 10th dan. There is nothing more to learn in that specific area.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Why is there an assumed stopping place of level 20 in 5e?

- Does the math break?

- Nobody plays that long?

- Was it lesson learned from 4e?

- Casters' spell progressions?

I'm sure there are very concrete reasons WOTC went with level 20. I just wonder what they were. I'm genuinely curious.

It's partly because 5E is a modern D&D edition, which means that many people play it as a finite game (where the prize is to "beat" the game) instead of an infinite game (where the prize is the right to continue playing). If you play as an infinite game, you don't need a stopping point--play will simply stop at whatever point the players can no longer handle the increased difficulty. But if you play it as a finite game, there's no point in preparing for infinite progression. You just set the win condition at some point before level 20, e.g. level 15 for WotC adventure paths.

5E kinda sorta supports infinite progression via epic boons and ASIs after 20th, but if you were seriously playing beyond 20th level for extended periods you'd probably wind up homebrewing a progression system, because otherwise you run into the battlemaster problem: the first Epic Boon is exciting, but by the sixth one you've already got all the Epic Boons you really cared about and the marginal utility of additional boons is low.

I would someday like to run a level 20-oriented sandbox, where difficulty from the very beginning is "appropriate" for level 20 characters, regardless of the PC level. (I've had good results previously from throwing 3rd level characters into a level 20 encounter. Sink or swim.) The ambition would be to play it as an infinite game. You spend the first part of the game clawing your way up, by hook or by crook, to level 20 where you are "competent" by the standards of everyone else on the playing board. At that point, instead of abandoning the game because you're "done", you begin participating in earnest in the game because now you're finally on an even footing with everyone else, until eventually you die and have to bring in a new PC. (Getting to level 20 with subsequent characters would probably be easier than the first time because now you've probably got help from other PCs.)

I don't have any definite ideas for what a level 20 infinite game would look like except that I suspect it would feel sort of like GURPS, and I'd want to set up game structures which made the other NPCs in the game very active participants--perhaps it will feel a bit like massive multiplayer chess or Stratego at the metagame level, with heavy Combat As War elements during the roleplaying phase. But 5E is a really good edition for this kind of thing because it's totally possible, and more than possible, for a level 20 Archmage to get robbed and murdered by a bunch of 3rd level nobodies.

I think I'd like to call that game Demigods and Dragons.

 

[Seramus]

It also seems likely to me that mortal heroes are much more compelling and relatable than living gods. If a level 20 character can take out a literal titan in two rounds, then there's not much more room to escalate from there. A story about one group of gods defying some other group of gods is like reading the Silmarillion instead of Lord of the Rings; there's just not as much of an audience for it.

To be fair, the Scion Kickstarter pulled in 334k, so there is a considerable audience for it. To compare, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is at 590k.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

To be fair, the Scion Kickstarter pulled in 334k, so there is a considerable audience for it. To compare, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is at 590k.

Yeah, this is where anything of Epic level would have to go, but I do not see WotC ever going the Kickstarter route for anything.

So regardless of all the other excuses for no Epic level stuff, the real reason is that there is no profit in it.

Or at least that is what WotC's secret Ferengi accountant keeps telling them.

 

[Caliban]

I'll worry about it if I ever get a character to level 20.

 

[S'mon]

It's partly because 5E is a modern D&D edition, which means that many people play it as a finite game (where the prize is to "beat" the game) instead of an infinite game (where the prize is the right to continue playing). If you play as an infinite game, you don't need a stopping point--play will simply stop at whatever point the players can no longer handle the increased difficulty. But if you play it as a finite game, there's no point in preparing for infinite progression. You just set the win condition at some point before level 20, e.g. level 15 for WotC adventure paths.

5E kinda sorta supports infinite progression via epic boons and ASIs after 20th, but if you were seriously playing beyond 20th level for extended periods you'd probably wind up homebrewing a progression system, because otherwise you run into the battlemaster problem: the first Epic Boon is exciting, but by the sixth one you've already got all the Epic Boons you really cared about and the marginal utility of additional boons is low.

I would someday like to run a level 20-oriented sandbox, where difficulty from the very beginning is "appropriate" for level 20 characters, regardless of the PC level. (I've had good results previously from throwing 3rd level characters into a level 20 encounter. Sink or swim.) The ambition would be to play it as an infinite game. You spend the first part of the game clawing your way up, by hook or by crook, to level 20 where you are "competent" by the standards of everyone else on the playing board. At that point, instead of abandoning the game because you're "done", you begin participating in earnest in the game because now you're finally on an even footing with everyone else, until eventually you die and have to bring in a new PC. (Getting to level 20 with subsequent characters would probably be easier than the first time because now you've probably got help from other PCs.)

I don't have any definite ideas for what a level 20 infinite game would look like except that I suspect it would feel sort of like GURPS, and I'd want to set up game structures which made the other NPCs in the game very active participants--perhaps it will feel a bit like massive multiplayer chess or Stratego at the metagame level, with heavy Combat As War elements during the roleplaying phase. But 5E is a really good edition for this kind of thing because it's totally possible, and more than possible, for a level 20 Archmage to get robbed and murdered by a bunch of 3rd level nobodies.

I think I'd like to call that game Demigods and Dragons.

My Wilderlands campaign feels a lot like this. Current PCs range from level 3 to level 19, and one adventurer group currently comprises 2 level 8s, a level 9 and the level 19. A very wide range of 5e PCs can adventure together IME.

 

[S'mon]

My Wilderlands campaign feels a lot like this. Current PCs range from level 3 to level 19, and one adventurer group currently comprises 2 level 8s, a level 9 and the level 19. A very wide range of 5e PCs can adventure together IME.

Oh yeah, my other 5e campaign, Varisia, is arguably even more like this! PCs are currently 12-14 but they've often had to run away from Runelord forces. They should be at 20 in another 25-35 sessions and be able to finally take on Runelord giant armies and such... This is completely different from running the same setting in Pathfinder, by 14th in PF the PCs were completely invincible.

 

[Azurewraith]

I think its a few things really. Tradition plays a part as does no one playing that long. The maths breaks long before 20though.

 

[Shiroiken]

OD&D and 1E AD&D were unlimited (in fact there is a 1E adventure that's for levels 18-100), but there was a point of diminishing returns where it took a lot of XP for little gain. BECMI went to level 36, but also had the option for playing as Immortals. 2E IIRC was also unlimited, but I believe gave you nothing but HP after level 20, so very few players ever wanted to do so. 3E core was capped at level 20, but they created a book for epic level adventuring that I know very little about. 4E hard capped at level 30. 5E caps levels at 20, but with epic boons you can still continue advancing characters for a very long time (until you run out of boons).

I personally like the unlimited levels of OD&D and 1E, where you pay more for less after a point. I'm fine with 5E's setup though, because it keeps the 1 level multi-class dips balanced (losing the capstone class ability).