Why the assumption that epic levels are purely optional?

Shade said:
And you are definitely entitled to your opinion of their quality, and are definitely the final arbiter of whether you wish to use them in your campaign, but can you prove to me that they are any less relevant to the game than the other rules presented in the DMG?

To what effect?

If you wish to use them in your game, I have nothing to say about it. The "officialness" or "optionalness" of it only matters in tournament. And then, prestige classes don't seem any more "optional" than lots of stuff in the PHB in tournaments... same with the completes, for that matter.
 

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Psion said:
To what effect?

If you wish to use them in your game, I have nothing to say about it. The "officialness" or "optionalness" of it only matters in tournament. And then, prestige classes don't seem any more "optional" than lots of stuff in the PHB in tournaments... same with the completes, for that matter.

It's not that...I'm more than comfortable using them in my game (and am doing so happily). I'm bothered by the fact that they are being virtually ignored in recent supplements. People seem to believe that the game stops at 20th level according to the core rules, and use this to justify nerfing all the epic material (such as many of the epic feats being downgraded, the nerfing of the demon princes, etc.) I fear that support for high-level gaming is vanishing from the game, and I'd like to know why.

I keep hearing about this mysterious "market research" that indicates that there isn't enough support to justify epic gaming, yet they obviously thought it was used enough to put it in a core book. If I'm truly in a tiny niche, I'll accept it and move on. But based on the number of epic supporters on these forums and others, I don't think that's the case.
 

Well, for one there's little appeal in even trying epic play, no matter how fun it could be.

-Once you've reached level 20, you most likely "have done it all" (bar killing powers, which is the crux of the current big argument). You've killed the dragons, visited hell, destroyed lichs, saved the country, saved the world (often multiple times) and sometimes even the multiverse. You've been entangled in politics and detangled yourself. 20th level, for me, sounds like the perfect point for "ok, next campaign"

-D&D already has plenty of "real ultimate power" already from 10 level forward. There's very little you can't do once you've reached 9th level spell. Most things you can't do are still well inside your powerlevel, but just not covered by the rules.

-Number crunching ever increases. I'm not to cry- omg, teh math killez me!!1one, but from 20th level on it simply gets a lot, and it simply doesn't appeal to everyone.

-If your play is more episodic, suspense of disbeliev could be hurt. Why are all these multiple planar spanning ultra threads comming up just now.

-The system, no matter how great it may play, doesn't exactly look appealing or well done.

-Related to the "done it all" a lot of epic play looks like "what you already did, but bigger!!111"

-There isn't really an appealing history of epic NPC's. The biggest epic NPC setting is FR, where they are seen more as annoyance or major weakness of the setting. To those that don't see it that way, they are more or less holy or untouchable NPC's. Many people with at least a little D&D experience have played or DMed FR. Many of these had frustrating deus-ex-machina, plot-stiffling or suspense of disbelieve hurting expiriences with those super DMs. I don't mean to bash FR, I still think it had it's success for a reason, but it hurt the image of epic levels.

-For some reason, it simply doesn't connect. It seems so...unexciting for something called epic.

There are other reasons.

All classes are all presented in the twenty level model. Epic stuff is always locked away in it's own area and often looks like an afterthought.

Really, the epic rules are only in the 3.5 DMG because there's no 3.5 epic book.

The game itself is in almost every way a twenty level game, casually looked at. It doesn't only give an almost complete expirience in twenty levels, but also creates the expectation of a complete experience. If epic was to be base assumption, why not remove the level cap altogether. (Bad idea, imho)

A lot of all this is prejudice and lack of promotion by wizards, but there are simply good reasons as well, I think.

I guess my main argument is that it's simply not needed. Like I've said, D&D 1-20 provides an almost complete expirience thanks to the four power levels (1-4 gritty survivalism, 5-9 fantastic fantasy, 10-14 superhero fantasy, 15-20 sorry, but that's already uber epic in my book). It gives all most people want and in many cases a bit more (just look at "sweet-spot" polls and up to what level many people play). Why chuck out the cherry of the cake, the very top of the heap and say "No, you've got to go epic with that"/eat a complete other pie.

At 20th level I've killed the orc, gimme ma pie.
 


Because the Epic book does not say 'Core' on the cover, and the Player's Handbook does. In other words people think that it is optional because it is optional.

The Auld Grump
 

TheAuldGrump said:
Because the Epic book does not say 'Core' on the cover, and the Player's Handbook does. In other words people think that it is optional because it is optional.

Epic rules which originated in the ELH are now in the core DMG, and the SRD.
 

The Epic rules aren't perfect but they work fine enough for me. Anyone who says the game is unplayable at epic levels should play in SHARK's campaign world. Sadly he doesn't post very often but his world is fundamentally designed with the epic level rules in mind.

The epic level rules require the fundamental nature of most campaigns to be completely rethought. In all fairness to a lot of DMs, this is a lot of work. Many find it deviates too far from their personal notions of what the game should look like.

I'll explore what I consider the three major issues that arise with using the epic level rules, and why they can be an issue for many DMs:

1) Epic characters cannot simply appear in a world designed for low-level DnD.

Successful epic level play basically requires a DM to have considered it in the design of his campaign world from the very beginning. Before the players even make level 1 characters, you as DM have to be able to foresee a campaign continuing on into epic levels and you should have those assumptions already built into your campaign world from the getgo. Some of the complaints around epic level play stem from the notion that it is unrealistic to run a campaign world where all the NPCs are level 1 commoners, and no epic threats existed while PCs were low level, but now suddenly these threats appear after the PCs level up?

And those DMs are right, it is unrealistic, which is why, IMO, a world geared for epic level play will have already considered this and resolved this issue. Some possible resolutions to this problem are the DM might devise a storyline where the players release ancient magic in the world as the campaign progresses, that magic in turn allows for the release or appearance of ever increasing epic level threats. Running this successfully requires the DM to have thought out this storyline well in advance. Something not easy to do.

Another option, is to already have epic level NPCs running around. Instead of being 1st level, the average NPC is 10th level. Most monsters should have class levels and so on. Therefore, even when the PCs achieve epic level they stand out, but are not so unique as to upset the balance of the setting. This is a little easier than trying to preplan a massive campaign arc. The drawback of this notion is that it often requires worlds to have a high level of magic that many DMs are not comfortable with.

2) Epic by its very nature requires high magic

In the minds of many, fantasy stories are gritty affairs in line with George RR Martin's series or Lord of the Rings. Many DMs, either consciously or subconsciously emulate this atmosphere. However, to run an epic level campaign requires epic level magic, villains, and a campaign setting to contain it all that doesn't break down. Epic level gaming has much more in common with superhero comics than gritty fantasy novels. If you are willing to embrace that, you can get epic level gaming to work for you. If not, then you won't.

3) Epic level adventure writing requires much more outside the box thinking.

Thinking is hard. Many people, myself included don't like to do it. Running epic level games requires a lot more thought and planning. When characters can teleport or turn incorporeal, your standard dungeon crawl just doesn't work anymore. When characters have the power to resurrect the dead, then even a dead witness can be questioned. Also writing stat blocks for high level NPCs and monsters can be extremely time consuming. No way around it, epic level gaming is a lot of work for a DM.
 


ColonelHardisson said:
Epic rules which originated in the ELH are now in the core DMG, and the SRD.
*Pulls out DMG*
Hmmm, so they are.

And on the first page of the Characters section (p. 169) it says: 'Contained within this chaper are a number pf options for PCs and NPCs alike...' So they are still optional. (And an option that I am going to opt out of, thank you very much...) For that matter so are PrCS, though they seem to find much broader acceptance.

The Auld Grump
 

Well, I don't necessarily think the epic level rules are redundant. I really enjoy the epic level rules and I enjoy playing in epic level campaigns.

I just think that the rules aren't for everybody. I would love to see more support for epic level play, but sadly, I think it is a niche market. Most DMs won't (or can't, based on some DMs I know ;) ) even run games to 20th level let alone epic level.
 

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