Why the assumption that epic levels are purely optional?

[MerricB]

The Epic Level Rules are in Chapter 6: Characters of the DMG v3.5e

Chapter 6, Page 169: "Contained within this chapter are a number of options for PCs and NPCs alike."

Chapter 6, Page 171: "VARIANT: NO SIDEBARS FOR VARIANT RULES... this chapter is composed of alternative rules, concepts and ways of doing things..."

Yep, I'd say they're optional.

Cheers!

 

[CF]

Think midichlorians. They've screwed up. Just pretend it doesn't exist, like everybody else does.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Why do so many people seem to think that epic levels are optional rules not implied by the core rules as written?

Because people - including designers, even at WotC - are, on the whole, either: a) scared by the prospect of using shoddy rules that come apart at the seams with startling ease; or b) scornful of / uninterested in said rules, for said reason.

 

[Tsillanabor]

I would consider them optional myself. It takes a lot of planning if a campaign will have access to epic levels. When the time comes my current group wants to go into epic levels (it'll be awhile-they started at 1st and are now 4th) so I started an entirely new campaign setting created with the presumption that epic level beings exist.

 

[delericho]

In my opinion, it was a fairly significant mistake to put those 5 pages of Epic material in the DMG. The Epic Level rules are presented in a 300+ page hardcover. 5 pages in the DMG cannot possibly hope to do justice to that material.

There are no spells intended for Epic play in the core rules. There are no monsters intended for Epic play in the core rules. There are no magic items intended for Epic play in the core rules. In essence, to run an Epic level game (or at least one that is very Epic, as opposed to slightly Epic as the end of Age of Worms is), you basically require the Epic Level Handbook. And since that is purely optional...

Should Epic play be supported? Well, somewhat. Ideally, Wizards would be able to support every aspect of the game. However, since they can only publish a certain number of books, and since page counts are finite, they need to choose. Since so few people (relatively speaking) use Epic levels, they can only expect a small amount of support (and I suspect far more people use Psionics than use Epic levels, so it's reasonable for there to be more by way of Psionic support than Epic). However, where things are intended for use above 20th level, they should be statted under the assumption that the Epic rules are used. So, any monster with a CR above the mid-20's, deity stats, and artifacts should all be done in a manner consistent with the Epic rules. It's even safe to assume availability of the Epic Level Handbook, since the only people who will use the material are those using Epic play, who will need that book anyway.

 

[Hairfoot]

There are no spells intended for Epic play in the core rules. There are no monsters intended for Epic play in the core rules. There are no magic items intended for Epic play in the core rules.

Exactly. The fact that an epic party of four can do the work of armies is a major turn-off for those of us (the majority) who like the game to at least pay homage to reality.

Standard D&D characters are superhero-y enough without epic rules. Beyond that, it's Marvel territory, not D&D.

 

[Li Shenron]

Level limit is always set (implicitly or explicitly) by the DM.

If I don't have creatures beyond a certain CR in my settings, the PCs can keep adventuring but won't get Xp after a certain level.

It all depends on what is the general DM's idea about the world, and how much power can be gained. D&D at level 1 already goes beyond the real world, but how far further is up to the DM.

 

[delericho]

Exactly.

I'm not sure what point you think I was trying to make with the text you quoted, but it had very little to do with the rest of your post. What I was getting at was that the Epic material in the core rules is insufficient for actual use. If you want to play an Epic game, you really need the Epic Level Handbook to do so.

The fact that an epic party of four can do the work of armies is a major turn-off for those of us (the majority) who like the game to at least pay homage to reality.

The reason for my disdain of the Epic rules is nothing to do with the concept of the rules themselves. I don't like the specific implementation used in the Epic Level Handbook. Additionally, by the time a game gets close to Epic levels, I'm generally at the point where I'm ready to wrap things up and start a new campaign.

Honestly, any notions of "paying homage to reality" become laughable when PCs are able to routinely lay waste to armies (fireball), turn invisible, fly, and raise the dead. Likewise, when there is a 0% chance of a trained (but not exceptional) warrior landing a lucky blow and killing an unarmed and unarmoured PC (who is not helpless), I'm ready to wave goodbye to realism (and I'm most certainly not of the opinion that either of these aspects of the game are a bad thing; they're just not even close to realistic).

In short, although the majority do not use the Epic rules, I suggest it would be unwise to assume that that is necessarily due to preferring realism.

Standard D&D characters are superhero-y enough without epic rules. Beyond that, it's Marvel territory, not D&D.

There is mythological and literary precedent for great mortal heroes contesting directly with the gods. That, to me, is justification enough for saying that some people should be able to do the same in their D&D games.

I believe the Epic level play is a valid pasttime. I just don't choose to engage in it myself.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Exactly. The fact that an epic party of four can do the work of armies is a major turn-off for those of us (the majority) who like the game to at least pay homage to reality.

Actually, ordinary high-level parties (levels 17-20, say) can do that already.

Besides, if you truly want to "pay homage to reality", you should maybe look for a gaming system other than D&D. D&D is pretty unrealistic from the start, though it manages to conceal that for a while while the characters are still at the lowest of levels...

Standard D&D characters are superhero-y enough without epic rules. Beyond that, it's Marvel territory, not D&D.

I'd say it is Exalted territory, actually. Charging armies and saving the world before breakfast is what that game does best - while still being solidly in the fantasy genre.

And epic-level D&D also remains a fantasy game, and not a superhero game (or at least, that's the default). Now whether the epic D&D rules work well is another question entirely...

 

[Hairfoot]

I'm not sure what point you think I was trying to make with the text you quoted, but it had very little to do with the rest of your post.

That's okay. I don't blame you for unintentionally making a good point.