Why the assumption that epic levels are purely optional?
- Thread starter Shade
- Start date
pogre
Legend
Hairfoot said:
I enjoy epic play, but this is exactly right. I would argue the change in game actually occurs before this. Around 13th level D&D changes and the PCs become a group of super heroes. A 13th level party can readily wipe out a decent sized army for example. Those interested in high level playing do need to plan for this eventuality.
Although I admire Shark's work, I usually choose a different path: The PCs are fated by the gods for greater heroism. They are expected to rise far above everyone else and face greater and greater dangers. Once they hit epic levels they are one of just a very few in the entire world. They are the atomic weapons of D&D.
Treating the PCs as fated explains away a lot of "realism" problems - like fast advancement in a relatively short period of time, and soldiers who are veterans and are only 2nd level, etc.
I do think the lack of epic support is purely driven by the market. Epic games are harder to run, and as witnessed by this thread, many actively dislike epic levels. I think we will have to depend on ourselves and Upperkrust (CC) for any future epic support.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Um, guys, I think that AuldGrump and Merric answered the question already.
So yeah, they're options, even if those options (like, say, PrCs or monsters as PCs) are contained in the core rulebooks.MerricB said:
The_Gneech
Explorer
Gold Roger said:
20th??? I'm in the 8-10 range and I'm already sick to death of haste, bless, and inspire courage. I've taken to writing the effects on index cards and putting them out on the table so we can all figure out the bazillion different buffs active at any given moment.
I can't even begin to wrap my brain around what epic's gonna look like. Hopefully I'll have a TPK long before then!
-The Gneech
Agent Oracle
First Post
Easy answer?
There is a point where a character aquires so much power that they effectively have free reign over the planet... 20th level is right about there. A 20th level adventurer is possibly the single most deadly thing in the knowable uinverse. THink about it, a wizard can alter the fundamental nature of reality oabout three or four times per day. A Cleric has a standing open hotline with a deity of his choosing. A fighter can destroy an approaching army largely by himself. Let's not even get into what they can accomplish with prestiege classes.
There is a point where a character aquires so much power that they effectively have free reign over the planet... 20th level is right about there. A 20th level adventurer is possibly the single most deadly thing in the knowable uinverse. THink about it, a wizard can alter the fundamental nature of reality oabout three or four times per day. A Cleric has a standing open hotline with a deity of his choosing. A fighter can destroy an approaching army largely by himself. Let's not even get into what they can accomplish with prestiege classes.
JustaPlayer
First Post
Here's my take on it. Yes the epic rules are optional, but as mentioned all rules are optional. Hey, if fighters in your world have on d4s they guess what that's your call. If spells only go up to level 5, again that's your call. Everything is optional.
Here's what get me ticked though. Not only are these rules presented in the DMG 3.5, but they had an entire book made just for them, and there is next to no support for them. No, instead we will make everything around CR20 and make all that other stuff we sold you useless.
Why not just make them powerful unique demons but give them diffrent names. There was no reason to put them in a book and call them Orcus, Jubelix, and such the cripple those established planer powers to the point that it doesn't make sense. How can Orcus rule a bunch of roudy demons if he could barely hold his own against a balor? Treaties? If you haven't noticed, demons are both chaotic and evil. If there was anyone bound to break a treaty in the world, it these guys.
Here's what get me ticked though. Not only are these rules presented in the DMG 3.5, but they had an entire book made just for them, and there is next to no support for them. No, instead we will make everything around CR20 and make all that other stuff we sold you useless.
Why not just make them powerful unique demons but give them diffrent names. There was no reason to put them in a book and call them Orcus, Jubelix, and such the cripple those established planer powers to the point that it doesn't make sense. How can Orcus rule a bunch of roudy demons if he could barely hold his own against a balor? Treaties? If you haven't noticed, demons are both chaotic and evil. If there was anyone bound to break a treaty in the world, it these guys.
3catcircus
Adventurer
If you use APG...
We use the Skill-based spellcasting rules from SSS's Advanced Players Guide - with a house-rule modification that it is Spellcraft and not the new skill "Spellcasting" that is used to cast spells.
The most problematic part of ELH seems to be epic spells, and the skill-based spellcasting rules seem to be able to naturally be extended into this. I do, however, think that many of the epic spells are simply too cumbersome to use in play (e.g. Time Duplicate).
Actually, I think the biggest factor that is off-putting is the fact that the ELH has been updated piecemeal in each of the 3.5 books - there is no big repository of replacement 3.5 rules or a cross-ref that says "yep - this is now in xxx, or this is still valid and contained in ELH pg. yyy."
We use the Skill-based spellcasting rules from SSS's Advanced Players Guide - with a house-rule modification that it is Spellcraft and not the new skill "Spellcasting" that is used to cast spells.
The most problematic part of ELH seems to be epic spells, and the skill-based spellcasting rules seem to be able to naturally be extended into this. I do, however, think that many of the epic spells are simply too cumbersome to use in play (e.g. Time Duplicate).
Actually, I think the biggest factor that is off-putting is the fact that the ELH has been updated piecemeal in each of the 3.5 books - there is no big repository of replacement 3.5 rules or a cross-ref that says "yep - this is now in xxx, or this is still valid and contained in ELH pg. yyy."
Giygasfan
First Post
the reason I think so many people dislike Epic is becouse it takes so much work. However, if done properly it can be even more rewarding than non-epic.
If the DM is willing to put in the time and effort to make a huge,epic setting w/high level NPCs and grand story arcs, and the layers are willing to handle figuring out and playing their characthers with a huge number of options and rules, playing in an epic campign can truly be just that: Epic.
If the DM is willing to put in the time and effort to make a huge,epic setting w/high level NPCs and grand story arcs, and the layers are willing to handle figuring out and playing their characthers with a huge number of options and rules, playing in an epic campign can truly be just that: Epic.
