Mystery Man
First Post
I would say so yeah.jmucchiello said:
why the attraction to "low magic"?
- Thread starter GlassJaw
- Start date
Steel_Wind
Legend
In addition to many of the above good points, I'll add a few more:
1 - Been there, done that : I've gamed for 25 years. I've done the power gamer thing and seen campagin after campaign end in boring *nothingness* as the whole challenge and wonder of magic become de rigeur. So while you may not have played "low power" right, I've done high power to death - and often enough to know that it's ultimately boring. Been there, done that.
2 - Low to mid level power is like foreplay; high power is a fleeting orgasm. There is nothing wrong in preserving the foreplay for a long time to enrich the experience for all. It's not that I LOVE 2nd level. I don't. My players don't either. But I REALLY love 5th to 10th. Mid level is where the game really lives, where the most options are open for challenges. The aim of my low power campaigns is to preserve this "sweet spot" in the campaign for as long as I can while still making it challenging AND providing perceptible progress to players.
The best way to do this is to limit magic loot and power to the party.
3 - Magic loses its thrill when its common. Look at Peter Jackson. He, like Tolkien saw that magic loses its ability to cause wonder when its so common its run on the mill.
So I just don't give it out very often. The bad guys don't have it very often either. There is no raise dead - no resurrection. A +2 sword becomes a PRIZED magic item - especially when you don't CALL it a +2 Sword but give it an appropriate lengendary history and all sorts of rumored powers and deeds, and identify never works 100% reliably.
It reintroduces mystery into the game and minimizes the effect of just *looking it up in a book*. This, in turn, reduces metagaming.
Magic is so much more of a carrot and a reward when it is truly rare, mysterious and you can never really be sure how it works, what it is or what it can do. It's...more magical.
The contrary practice, like a high power Forgotten Realms setting, reduces magic to run of the mill pseudo-tech. There are whole guilds and orders of Wizads, archmages in every town and MULTIPLE magic shops in large cities. Gold becomes magic and magic gold. Magic is not legendary - it's just equipment, with magic substituting for technology.
Want a magic item? Go make one.
There is no such thing as the legendary Stormblade of Rhylieh reputed to have demon slaying powers - and its just a +2 short sword that glows only sometimes and people don't know why. Instead it's all a commodity. Just another piece of equipment whose powers are precisely known and whose value you can find in a column in the DMG.
*MEH*
4 - Old Gamers tend to bore easiily of High Power: While not universally true by any means, I do suggest there is a correlation between length of time playing RPGs and a preference for power gaming. IF this style of play entertains you it doesn't mean your taste is bad and mine good. But I do suggest it is prevalent in newer gamers as opposed to gamers who have been playing a long while. The wonder of it for newer gamers has not worn off; for the grognards, its a road we've been down before and know exactly where it ends.
Sorry. I've tried your way and done it for years. It does satisfy for a time, but ultimatley, its empty, hollow and unfulfilling; it's empty calories, for *ME*. Give me low power, low magic and high medieval fanstasy any day.
1 - Been there, done that : I've gamed for 25 years. I've done the power gamer thing and seen campagin after campaign end in boring *nothingness* as the whole challenge and wonder of magic become de rigeur. So while you may not have played "low power" right, I've done high power to death - and often enough to know that it's ultimately boring. Been there, done that.
2 - Low to mid level power is like foreplay; high power is a fleeting orgasm. There is nothing wrong in preserving the foreplay for a long time to enrich the experience for all. It's not that I LOVE 2nd level. I don't. My players don't either. But I REALLY love 5th to 10th. Mid level is where the game really lives, where the most options are open for challenges. The aim of my low power campaigns is to preserve this "sweet spot" in the campaign for as long as I can while still making it challenging AND providing perceptible progress to players.
The best way to do this is to limit magic loot and power to the party.
3 - Magic loses its thrill when its common. Look at Peter Jackson. He, like Tolkien saw that magic loses its ability to cause wonder when its so common its run on the mill.
So I just don't give it out very often. The bad guys don't have it very often either. There is no raise dead - no resurrection. A +2 sword becomes a PRIZED magic item - especially when you don't CALL it a +2 Sword but give it an appropriate lengendary history and all sorts of rumored powers and deeds, and identify never works 100% reliably.
It reintroduces mystery into the game and minimizes the effect of just *looking it up in a book*. This, in turn, reduces metagaming.
Magic is so much more of a carrot and a reward when it is truly rare, mysterious and you can never really be sure how it works, what it is or what it can do. It's...more magical.
The contrary practice, like a high power Forgotten Realms setting, reduces magic to run of the mill pseudo-tech. There are whole guilds and orders of Wizads, archmages in every town and MULTIPLE magic shops in large cities. Gold becomes magic and magic gold. Magic is not legendary - it's just equipment, with magic substituting for technology.
Want a magic item? Go make one.
There is no such thing as the legendary Stormblade of Rhylieh reputed to have demon slaying powers - and its just a +2 short sword that glows only sometimes and people don't know why. Instead it's all a commodity. Just another piece of equipment whose powers are precisely known and whose value you can find in a column in the DMG.
*MEH*
4 - Old Gamers tend to bore easiily of High Power: While not universally true by any means, I do suggest there is a correlation between length of time playing RPGs and a preference for power gaming. IF this style of play entertains you it doesn't mean your taste is bad and mine good. But I do suggest it is prevalent in newer gamers as opposed to gamers who have been playing a long while. The wonder of it for newer gamers has not worn off; for the grognards, its a road we've been down before and know exactly where it ends.
Sorry. I've tried your way and done it for years. It does satisfy for a time, but ultimatley, its empty, hollow and unfulfilling; it's empty calories, for *ME*. Give me low power, low magic and high medieval fanstasy any day.
Last edited:
ledded
Herder of monkies
Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
A lot of good discussion here on low-magic/high-magic, and I just wanted to add a few points coming from someone who went from traditional D&D to a low-magic modern setting, and what we got out of the experience.
1) Like said before, the characters instantly become more about what they are, more than what they have. Even in a game where you can have highly destructive firearms/technology, this still holds true. The group is no longer focused on looting and selling everything they come across, and being really good at something is a lot harder than spending a few thousand coins on the latest do-dad magical thingy. The few odd magical items you come across are much cooler and niftier by comparison, and the focus is on the story not the treasure.
2) Magic became, once again, well, 'magic'. Mysterious. Powerful. Not to be easily trifled with. We used a magic system that you learn about *as you go along* instead of being able to read the entire thing from the book. Magic costs the player to cast, sometimes just a few hit points, sometimes more, sometimes temporary ability damage or other strange stuff, but with no spell slots/spells per day. Find spells as you go, learn them, and try to find ways to cast them more often without killing yourself
. We have no idea what the big bad guy, spirit, demon, etc is totally capable of, though through some research and knowledge may gain some hints or solid ideas about it. Now, when a magical effect happens, people are actually awed by it. If a guy waves his hands and a tree falls down, you can be sure that someone will go "Holy CRAP! What was THAT?!?"
There is still powerful magic, but it is neither easy, nor commonplace. When it happens, you know it, it frightens/excites you in one way or another, and it's something you talk about for a long time afterwards.
3) Most importantly, it has a more tense, invested feel. Call it 'grittier' or whatever you like, but the end effect is that players tend to make better choices with their characters like taking cover, running away from the big nasty six-armed grapple-beast, etc. But people often still do incredibly heroic (read: "stupid") things like jump through windows into the middle of a crowd of heavily armed and hostile men or fend off the hulking demon trying to throw them off of the edge of a 29 storey building with nothing but a bible and their faith, just to save their buddy... and when they survive it, it means that much more in the end. No ressurection and raise dead makes us invest a bit more in our character, because, well, nobody wants to die. And when a character does, it often *means* something, other than loading them up to take to the nearest cleric so they can be fresh as daisies the next day. It makes the choice whether to do something that has a good chance of getting you killed feel a bit more like a choice, and less of a inconvenience. We have actually had characters get whacked *less* with this style of play.
I'm in no way saying it's better; I loved our D&D campaign in all of it's magic-packed and I've-filled-every-item-slot glory, but this way has satisfied our roleplaying needs much, much deeper, so it works for us. When we get back to a D&D campaign, we have plans for balancing the fantastic/fantasy aspect with more of this feel, and I'm very much looking forward to it.
A lot of good discussion here on low-magic/high-magic, and I just wanted to add a few points coming from someone who went from traditional D&D to a low-magic modern setting, and what we got out of the experience.
1) Like said before, the characters instantly become more about what they are, more than what they have. Even in a game where you can have highly destructive firearms/technology, this still holds true. The group is no longer focused on looting and selling everything they come across, and being really good at something is a lot harder than spending a few thousand coins on the latest do-dad magical thingy. The few odd magical items you come across are much cooler and niftier by comparison, and the focus is on the story not the treasure.
2) Magic became, once again, well, 'magic'. Mysterious. Powerful. Not to be easily trifled with. We used a magic system that you learn about *as you go along* instead of being able to read the entire thing from the book. Magic costs the player to cast, sometimes just a few hit points, sometimes more, sometimes temporary ability damage or other strange stuff, but with no spell slots/spells per day. Find spells as you go, learn them, and try to find ways to cast them more often without killing yourself
. We have no idea what the big bad guy, spirit, demon, etc is totally capable of, though through some research and knowledge may gain some hints or solid ideas about it. Now, when a magical effect happens, people are actually awed by it. If a guy waves his hands and a tree falls down, you can be sure that someone will go "Holy CRAP! What was THAT?!?"There is still powerful magic, but it is neither easy, nor commonplace. When it happens, you know it, it frightens/excites you in one way or another, and it's something you talk about for a long time afterwards.
3) Most importantly, it has a more tense, invested feel. Call it 'grittier' or whatever you like, but the end effect is that players tend to make better choices with their characters like taking cover, running away from the big nasty six-armed grapple-beast, etc. But people often still do incredibly heroic (read: "stupid") things like jump through windows into the middle of a crowd of heavily armed and hostile men or fend off the hulking demon trying to throw them off of the edge of a 29 storey building with nothing but a bible and their faith, just to save their buddy... and when they survive it, it means that much more in the end. No ressurection and raise dead makes us invest a bit more in our character, because, well, nobody wants to die. And when a character does, it often *means* something, other than loading them up to take to the nearest cleric so they can be fresh as daisies the next day. It makes the choice whether to do something that has a good chance of getting you killed feel a bit more like a choice, and less of a inconvenience. We have actually had characters get whacked *less* with this style of play.
I'm in no way saying it's better; I loved our D&D campaign in all of it's magic-packed and I've-filled-every-item-slot glory, but this way has satisfied our roleplaying needs much, much deeper, so it works for us. When we get back to a D&D campaign, we have plans for balancing the fantastic/fantasy aspect with more of this feel, and I'm very much looking forward to it.
Desdichado
Hero
I love it! If my sig wasn't already fairly cluttered, that'd end up right there.Steel_Wind said:
GlassJaw
Hero
Hmm, I'm not sure I made any "claims" that a DM shouldn't make changes for their world and if it came across that way, it wasn't my intention.
What I was trying to say was that my one brush with a "low-magic" campaign left a very bad taste in my mouth. It wasn't so much a low-magic campaign as it was the DM telling us "no" to everything character concept presented to him. He seemed to have some kind of vendetta against what he thought was min/maxing or powergaming or whatever he wanted to call it at the time.
Anyway, going into detail isn't really important. My point was that I wanted some reasons and philosophies for running low-magic campaigns and how to do it "properly".
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
I'm reading the Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb now. There is magic in the setting, but its often connected to the Liveships themselves. Creatures of Wizardwood.
Anyway, while I'm reading it, I'm noticing a few things. First, this is the second trilogy by Robin Hobb in the same universe. The characters in this book are aware of the places and events of those things happening far and away from them, but aren't really connected.
That strikes me. With even standard magics, gates, teleportation, and other factors come into play and if we assume that there are NPCs of any worth in the setting, ala Forgotten Realms, than the real questions are why isn't the whole more cohesive? Why are there still viking like lands while others soar onto higher platueas? Magic use at those levels either requires you to hope your players don't abuse it and simply shrug their shoulders at the inconsistencies, or requires the GM to police it.
"Well, we're going to sue Gate 1 to take spices and herbs from the Isles of Wa to the Moonsea and make another easy 10K."
"Well, the Gatekeeper comes and says you've been very bad!"
Gets weak after a while.
Anyway, while I'm reading it, I'm noticing a few things. First, this is the second trilogy by Robin Hobb in the same universe. The characters in this book are aware of the places and events of those things happening far and away from them, but aren't really connected.
That strikes me. With even standard magics, gates, teleportation, and other factors come into play and if we assume that there are NPCs of any worth in the setting, ala Forgotten Realms, than the real questions are why isn't the whole more cohesive? Why are there still viking like lands while others soar onto higher platueas? Magic use at those levels either requires you to hope your players don't abuse it and simply shrug their shoulders at the inconsistencies, or requires the GM to police it.
"Well, we're going to sue Gate 1 to take spices and herbs from the Isles of Wa to the Moonsea and make another easy 10K."
"Well, the Gatekeeper comes and says you've been very bad!"
Gets weak after a while.
DragonLancer
Hero
As a DM and as a player I prefer low-magic games. There are a few reasons why, and most have been discussed already.
The main one is power level. Its quite amazing how the addition of a single item can throw the CR/balance issue out the window.
I ban item creation feats other than scribe scroll & bre potion, because if a party can make their own items what the point of a DM including them as treasure?
Under the 3.5 rules, theres no need for a +5 weapon as DR now is a blanket X/magic. So thats one way of limiting magic that kind of appeals to me.
As the game reaches higher levels, thats when the power of some spells breaches the magic issue. Whether thats teleport, ressurection or something else. When magic of this "level" becomes commonplace then it loses feeling.
Ultimately it comes down to the individual game, its DM and players, but the standard as presented in the 3.5 corebooks is a bit too high powered for my tastes, hence the reason why its gets toned down.
Whatever happened to D&D being a pseudo-medieval world, rather than contempoary world with magic?
The main one is power level. Its quite amazing how the addition of a single item can throw the CR/balance issue out the window.
I ban item creation feats other than scribe scroll & bre potion, because if a party can make their own items what the point of a DM including them as treasure?
Under the 3.5 rules, theres no need for a +5 weapon as DR now is a blanket X/magic. So thats one way of limiting magic that kind of appeals to me.
As the game reaches higher levels, thats when the power of some spells breaches the magic issue. Whether thats teleport, ressurection or something else. When magic of this "level" becomes commonplace then it loses feeling.
Ultimately it comes down to the individual game, its DM and players, but the standard as presented in the 3.5 corebooks is a bit too high powered for my tastes, hence the reason why its gets toned down.
Whatever happened to D&D being a pseudo-medieval world, rather than contempoary world with magic?
Desdichado
Hero
To be honest with you, I'm not sure it ever was a pseudo-medieval world. Now, if Kaptain_Kantrip were here, he could launch into an expose of how aw3s0me!!!1111one1!! Hârn is in comparison to D&D...DragonLancer said:
But seriously, I don't think D&D was really ever about pseudo-medievalism, even back in the early Gygax days.
Note, it's not D&D 3/3.5 that causes this "items define the character" problem. That's been in D&D since the beginning. heck my old 2e character felt lost when he lost his vorpal longsword of killing. Thank the gods he got it back...
Heroes wouldn't need gear if they had powers that did all the things gear lets you do.
Janx
Heroes wouldn't need gear if they had powers that did all the things gear lets you do.
Janx
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